Jehovah versus Jesus

[Ruben]

The scriptures say that God does not change, He does not repent, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. We know that Jehovah, the implacable God of the Old Testament (see Numbers 31), is the same Jesus Christ who lived in the flesh and was full of mercy and love towards humanity. How can we reconcile Jehovah's great cruelty with Jesus' great love? What kind of God should we expect after this life, the loving character of Jesus or the terrible character of Jehovah?

[mikbone]

Sounds like you would prefer His mercy over judgement.

[JohnsonJones]

Both.

Remember, the Lord has many messages of love and compassion.  We see it through him in the New Testament.  He is teaching and showing Israel the higher law and it's effects. 

However, he also fashioned a weapon (and it was a weapon, you can craft one yourself and see that it is not only possible to severely hurt people with it, it is also possible to beat someone to death with it if you make it correctly) and used it to chase evil money changers out of the temple.  A very violent act.  He wasn't always peaceful.  When defending the Sacredness of areas and things he could resort to violence.

In the Old Testament there are rules that imply love and compassion.  One of the primary commandments we refer to as the 10 commandments tell us to Honor our Father and Mother for example.  However, this is the Lower Law, and thus is not as demanding as the Higher Law. 

[Carborendum]

5 hours ago, Ruben said:

The scriptures say that God does not change, He does not repent, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. We know that Jehovah, the implacable God of the Old Testament (see Numbers 31), is the same Jesus Christ who lived in the flesh and was full of mercy and love towards humanity. How can we reconcile Jehovah's great cruelty with Jesus' great love? What kind of God should we expect after this life, the loving character of Jesus or the terrible character of Jehovah?

This is cherry picking.  Or it shows you haven't actually read the OT.

A parent loves his children (as a desire and sentiment for good to be in their lives and for them to gain Eternal Life) whether they are behaving well or not.  A parent loves his children when he needs to punish them and correct them.

Yet there were many instances of God's mercy being abundant in the OT. 

• Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden. But He gave them coats of skins.  He gave them the Law of Sacrifice.  He gave them a plan to work out their repentance.
• While the flood took most of the earth, He showed mercy to Noah and his family because they were righteous. 
• When the Israelites were enslaved by an unfamiliar Pharoah, He gave them a deliverer who provided manna in the wilderness and water from a rock.
• When cursed with serpents, He provided them a miraculous way to be healed. 
• He gave Hannah a son who was faithful to her and to the Lord. 
• He gave Abraham blessings and an everlasting covenant for his faithfulness. 
• Ruth and Boaz were united in a fairy tale romance. 
• Daniel and his friends were preserved in the midst of a hostile takeover of the nation.  They were even raised in the King's court because of the Lord's blessings.
• He gave them a promise of a Messiah.
• The Widow of Zarapeth was blessed twice by a Prophet of God.
• As Israel returned to their homeland, they were given a king (Cyrus) who freed them from slavery and would allow them to openly practice their religion in peace.
• He saved entire groups of people to live the gospel in its fulness (Lehites, Mulekites, Jaredites).

It's easy to say that He was always fire and brimstone.  But that is because you haven't actually read the OT.

And if you compare (supposedly) 4000 years of OT history with 100 yrs of NT history, you're getting a skewed view.  Because of wickedness, the power of the Priesthood was taken away from the earth.  And the world endured over 1000 years of darkness.  And then we also have the Book of Revelation.

Edited November 26, 2024 by Carborendum

[Vort]

6 hours ago, Ruben said:

How can we reconcile Jehovah's great cruelty with Jesus' great love?

This is a fiction. The Old Testament's Jehovah is not cruel. Unlike basically all of the pagan gods, Jehovah expected His people to be like Him—kind, patient, loving, generous.

[LDSGator]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

Sounds like you would prefer His mercy over judgement

To be fair, all of us should prefer mercy over judgement. None of us are worthy of His love without the mercy of Christ. 

 

6 hours ago, Ruben said:

The scriptures say that God does not change, He does not repent, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. We know that Jehovah, the implacable God of the Old Testament (see Numbers 31), is the same Jesus Christ who lived in the flesh and was full of mercy and love towards humanity. How can we reconcile Jehovah's great cruelty with Jesus' great love? What kind of God should we expect after this life, the loving character of Jesus or the terrible character of Jehovah?

Yeah, the old testament absolutely has moments like you described. It troubles me too sometimes, and we’re not alone.

The very very good news @Ruben is that God loves us so much that He gave His son to die in our place. 

[LDSGator]

@Ruben-

I admire you for asking these questions. It means you are thinking about and debating the issues. 

[Ruben]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

@Ruben-

I admire you for asking these questions. It means you are thinking about and debating the issues. 

Members generally avoid asking certain questions in church for fear of being misinterpreted and labeled as protesters, so many doctrines are taboo, they are not talked about for fear of offending someone and they remain unresolved, sometimes causing more damage in silence than what they would have done by discussing it. 

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, Ruben said:

Members generally avoid asking certain questions in church for fear of being misinterpreted and labeled as protesters, so many doctrines are taboo, they are not talked about for fear of offending someone and they remain unresolved, sometimes causing more damage in silence than what they would have done by discussing it. 

Yes, I understand some people feel that way. However, in my old ward we often talked about controversial subjects. The first RS meeting my wife went to they talked about polygamy! So I while I’ve heard others say that, I never personally experienced it. 
 

You’ll always find members who would prefer to not discuss controversial issues. They’ll insult you, insinuate your testimony isn’t strong, and the like. The best thing to do is pat them on the head (metaphorically!!) and ignore them. 

I truly hope you stay here bro. 

[LDSGator]

The good news @Ruben?
 

The church is three steps ahead of the members who do what I described. The church has released the essays, been more open about discussing controversial issues, published the Joesph Smith Papers, sold Rough Stone Rolling in it’s bookstores,  and is becoming way more open than they were even only 20 years ago.
 

While I stand by what I said-you’ll always find the members who jump up and down and whine about questions, insult you, and protest-they are getting “phased out” for lack of a better word. 
 

Good luck bro. I’m praying for you. 

Edited November 26, 2024 by LDSGator

[zil2]

3 hours ago, Carborendum said:

This is cherry picking.  Or it shows you haven't actually read the OT.

This.  Go read the Old Testament.  Look for a God of love, patience, and mercy - He is there for all the world to see.  I believe seeing a "vengeful" God happens because people hear that claim before they themselves ever read the Old Testament.  That was my view until I read Hugh Nibley claiming that the God of the OT was a merciful God.  So I went to read again, and found such love and beautiful promises that I have completely changed my view.

Is there violence? Sure, when wicked people do violent things, and when the wrath of God is invoked by a very, very wicked people.  But it's clear that God wishes to be otherwise and it takes a lot to call out his justice.

Also, check out the hymn "How Firm a Foundation" - full of such gentle and beautiful promises - it's almost word for word from the Old Testament.  Pay attention to the sacrifices and how, once given, they are emphasized as "holy" - this is the source for why our tithes and offerings are holy (and if you've ever been in a position to decide how they're spent, then you should have been trained on just how sacred those funds are and how careful we should be about their use - my OT reading really emphasized that for me).

Edited November 26, 2024 by zil2

[estradling75]

On the subject of Justice and Mercy.  A week or two ago I heard someone give a talk about Justice and Mercy.

In that talk he reconciled these two divine traits in to one.  His reconciliation was "The good that is necessary for an individual."   I am still wrapping my head around that.  That is not how we mortals tend to view it.. but maybe it would be helpful for us if we did.

 

 

[HaggisShuu]

4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

This is cherry picking.  Or it shows you haven't actually read the OT.

That's an unfair assertion to make. I've had experiences with the old testament that left me highly disturbed. But also moments where I've felt profoundly edified. 
 

I've reached a point where I just sort of look at it and shrug now. 

Edited November 26, 2024 by HaggisShuu

[Just_A_Guy]

https://askgramps.org/how-can-i-reconcile-the-message-of-gods-perfect-love-with-accounts-of-wrath-and-brutality/

[zil2]

4 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

That's an unfair assertion to make. I've had experiences with the old testament that left me highly disturbed. But also moments where I've felt profoundly edified. 
 

I've reached a point where I just sort of look at it and shrug now. 

Did you read the OT before anyone told you anything about it?  Or did you first hear (likely as a child) about the violent or vengeful God of the OT, and then read it for yourself?  I submit that we hear it first, and read it second (after all, the OT isn't likely to be on a child's list of "things to read next"), and this attitude has become the prevailing view.  I submit that this "priming of the pump" causes us to blame God for things in the OT that God had no part in.  I believe it causes us to pass by the mercy, generosity, etc. without notice.

I am not saying that God's wrath and justice are never on display in the OT, I'm saying that once the pump has been primed, we notice that to exclusion of all else, and attribute to that things which have other origins.

[Carborendum]

1 minute ago, HaggisShuu said:

That's an unfair assertion to make. I've had experiences with the old testament that left me highly disturbed. But also moments where I've felt highly profoundly edified. 
 

I've reached a point where I just sort of look at it and shrug now. 

I think you're misreading my intent.  Fair's got nothing to do with it.  It's a matter of probabilities.

The initial claim is 

• God of OT = Fire and Brimstone
• God of NT = Teddy Bear

I fully recognize the fire and brimstone stuff in the OT.  Of course it exists.  Only a fool would deny it. And I fully recognize the preaching of charity and forgiveness of NT.  Only a fool would deny that.

So, can you at least admit that Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple?  If so, can you also admit that God showed many tender mercies to the Children of Israel in the OT (c.f. the list I provided before)?

If so, can you recognize that God has been both vengeful and charitable in both the NT and the OT?

As @zil2 mentioned, the reason why people focus on the stories that you mention is that those are the stories that you're familiar with.  So, if you want to see the teddy bear God of the OT, then you have to read the other books that have those stories in them.  But most people don't read them because they don't make for good movies.

[zil2]

11 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

https://askgramps.org/how-can-i-reconcile-the-message-of-gods-perfect-love-with-accounts-of-wrath-and-brutality/

For the win!

[HaggisShuu]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

Did you read the OT before anyone told you anything about it?  Or did you first hear (likely as a child) about the violent or vengeful God of the OT, and then read it for yourself?  I submit that we hear it first, and read it second (after all, the OT isn't likely to be on a child's list of "things to read next"), and this attitude has become the prevailing view.  I submit that this "priming of the pump" causes us to blame God for things in the OT that God had no part in.  I believe it causes us to pass by the mercy, generosity, etc. without notice.

I am not saying that God's wrath and justice are never on display in the OT, I'm saying that once the pump has been primed, we notice that to exclusion of all else, and attribute to that things which have other origins.

I admit I definitely heard the vengeful God narrative before diving into the OT myself. 
 

I totally get your point of view, there are many odd and disturbing things which take place in the OT which cannot be attributed to God. But when I read Samuel 15:1-3 I felt genuinely shocked. I get that I read this passage through the modern eye, and I may be missing some of the context as I don't know much about the culture of these societies, but there is no amount of explanation or justification that will never make me see these verses as anything other than truly harrowing. (Which is maybe the point of it, I don't know).

But, I am at peace with that. This took place according to the plan of salvation, and if that is what God commanded, so be it, who am I to argue with the creator?

 I do find that most of the time, I feel uplifted by what I read in the OT, but I also fully understand why some people may be left feeling conflicted and confused at certain points. 

[laronius]

20 hours ago, Ruben said:

The scriptures say that God does not change, He does not repent, He is the same yesterday, today and forever. We know that Jehovah, the implacable God of the Old Testament (see Numbers 31), is the same Jesus Christ who lived in the flesh and was full of mercy and love towards humanity. How can we reconcile Jehovah's great cruelty with Jesus' great love? What kind of God should we expect after this life, the loving character of Jesus or the terrible character of Jehovah?

Can you provide some examples of the cruelty you are referencing? It might help in providing a more direct answer to your question.

[Vort]

12 hours ago, Carborendum said:

So, can you at least admit that Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple?

He literally braided a whip with which He drove them out of the temple like the beasts they were.

[Anddenex]

When I think of members who pose this question, I often wonder if they ever have read the Book of Mormon. Six hundred years of the Book of Mormon was OT Jehovah, by which we are informed many times over how great his mercy was/is toward the children of men.

I often wonder if they took a moment to think clearly about how the same Jehovah who flooded the earth is the same Jehovah (Jesus after resurrection) who will come with fire.

This type of question is the type of question I always feel is inspired by the wrong Spirit. Pitting Jesus against Jesus -- sounds like something the adversary would do. -- Just my opinion on that. Even the OT is full of God's mercy toward Adam, Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and even the Children of Israel who were spared from Egyptian bondage as promised. The OT simply proves that God is a God of his word -- both with mercy and justice.

[Carborendum]

A bishop in my old ward had a package of snickers in his office.  He gave them away whenever someone read through the BoM.  When I heard about this, I thought, "Gee, I have a need for protein in my diet."

So, I had the audio playing in my car to and from work (45-50 min commute).  But the narrator is so freaking slow that I had it on at 2x speed.  I later learned that most people find the 1x speed to be too fast.  Oops.

Anyway, I was in the bishop's office every two or three weeks... for the snickers.

After I had done that for a few months, the bishop's stash ran out.  It was then that I began listening to all the remaining standard works.  

As I got to the Old Testament, I realized that there was a LOT of sex, violence, and wrath of God type stuff.  That was shocking.  But I listened to it several times as I had all the other books.  It was then that I saw all the tender mercies of the Lord.  Yes, in the Old Testament.

I think that people see all the sex, violence, and wrath that they get so shocked into believing that was all it was.  They'd be wrong.  There is much to be grateful for in the OT.  There was much love of God in the OT.  But you have to get over being shocked at His justice before you can even see the mercy.

[zil2]

59 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I think that people see all the sex, violence, and wrath that they get so shocked into believing that was all it was.

Screaming is much easier to notice than whispers.

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

A bishop in my old ward had a package of snickers in his office

The first time I met with a bishop he offered me Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups. Must be a bishop thing. 

[Ruben]

On 11/27/2024 at 5:08 AM, laronius said:

Can you provide some examples of the cruelty you are referencing? It might help in providing a more direct answer to your question.

Do you need references? There are too many. 
In my original question there is a reference to Numbers 31, which you apparently missed. 

However the OT is full of stories of wars, the Lord commands the children of Israel to make war on the peoples who inhabited the promised land, he sends to kill without mercy, men, women and children.
He calls himself Lord of Hosts. 
He defines himself as jealous, vindictive and furious with his enemies. 

The universal flood where all humanity (except 8 people) was exterminated, men, women, children, animals.

The law of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth  as opposed to the commandment to love your enemies. 

Nahum 1:2 God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserves wrath for his enemies.
And only a few examples... 

Exodus, 32:27
Leviticus, 26:27-29
Numbers, 25:9
Numbers, 31:17-18
Numbers, 31:31-40
Deuteronomy, 2:33-34
Deuteronomy, 3:6 
Deuteronomy, 20:16
Deuteronomy, 28:53

Joshua, 6:21-27

Joshua, 7:19-26
Joshua, 10:32-33
Joshua, 11:20
1 Samuel, 15:7-8
2 Samuel, 24:15

Edited December 1, 2024 by Ruben