Am I alone in believing this way??

[Ann]

Hello! I’m a woman deeply committed to my faith and the church, with a strong testimony of the gospel that means the world to me. Lately, though, I’ve been feeling a bit isolated in my thoughts and emotions, which has me wondering if others might feel the same way. I find myself agreeing with many ideas shared by progressive LDS members, though I differ when it comes to LGBTQ matters. To be clear, I wholeheartedly believe in showing love and ensuring our LGBTQ brothers and sisters have a place in both the church and society. But when it comes to celestial marriage, I hold firm that it will always be between one man and one woman. Polygamy, to me, feels like something that came up because we live in a flawed, fallen world—I trust it’ll all work out in the hereafter. For me, the celestial ideal is one man and one woman united, and while I know that view might stir some debate, it’s where my heart rests.

Throughout my life, I’ve wrestled with how women have been treated and viewed, both in the church and beyond its walls. I’m truly grateful to be living in a time when real progress is happening, especially within the church. I’m so appreciative of the brethren and the meaningful steps they’re taking! Still, there are some things that weigh on me. Just to clarify, I don’t consider myself a modern feminist—I feel the movement has drifted from its roots and now pushes ideas, like equating transgender women with biological women, that I can’t support. In my mind, transgender women aren’t women in quite the same way.

If I had to describe my stance, I might call myself an egalitarian—yes, it carries some political weight, but it captures how I see men and women as equal yet distinct, like two beautiful pieces of a divine whole. I deeply value the doctrine that men hold the priesthood to serve others, just as I cherish women’s sacred role to nurture and teach, often through motherhood—though I know not every woman becomes a mother, and they can live out that calling in so many wonderful ways. I’m not one to push for women’s ordination to the priesthood, but I do find myself missing some of the privileges we once had, like when women in the early church could bless the sick. When our roles come together, I believe it creates something truly harmonious.

What troubles me, though, is the sense that women’s voices and perspectives don’t always seem to matter as much as men’s—except maybe in certain callings. Too often, I feel overlooked by men who then offer well-meaning but empty comments like, “Women are more faithful than men—that’s why more of them will be in heaven.” That just doesn’t sit right with me. In our culture, motherhood is often lifted higher than fatherhood, but I see them as equally essential. After all, we pray to our Heavenly Father for guidance. I’d love to hear more about women in the church—both from history and today. The scriptures don’t say much about them, and I wish we honored the women of the gospel as much as we do the men and prophets.

I’m not looking for attention or a big role—I just want women to be part of the discussion. I also wonder why we still separate Sunday School by gender. I’d love to see callings built more around partnerships—like husbands and wives serving together—rather than splitting priesthood holders and women apart. It feels important for men and women, boys and girls, to learn about each other’s divine roles side by side. Same goes for church activities—I’d rather see events that bring us all together instead of dividing into Relief Society or Elders’ groups. Most couples want to spend that time with each other, and we could design things to include singles without making it all about family stuff.

Above all, I’m praying for more revelation about our Heavenly Mother. My love for my Heavenly Father and my Savior, Jesus Christ, runs deep, but I long for a divine feminine example to guide me. My dad was my rock growing up—he shaped my faith in huge ways—but it was my mom’s influence that made me who I am today. I want that kind of connection with my Heavenly Mother, too. I’d still pray to the Father and seek His wisdom, but I yearn to understand the feminine ideal I’m meant to strive for—to see the full picture of what men and women are meant to be together. I hope that longing isn’t out of place; it’s just what’s in my heart.

Sorry for going on so long! I hope my words don’t upset anyone—I’m sharing them with an open heart and a lot of faith. Thank you for hearing me out!

[laronius]

On 4/5/2025 at 4:13 PM, Ann said:

Hello! I’m a woman deeply committed to my faith and the church, with a strong testimony of the gospel that means the world to me. Lately, though, I’ve been feeling a bit isolated in my thoughts and emotions, which has me wondering if others might feel the same way. I find myself agreeing with many ideas shared by progressive LDS members, though I differ when it comes to LGBTQ matters. To be clear, I wholeheartedly believe in showing love and ensuring our LGBTQ brothers and sisters have a place in both the church and society. But when it comes to celestial marriage, I hold firm that it will always be between one man and one woman. Polygamy, to me, feels like something that came up because we live in a flawed, fallen world—I trust it’ll all work out in the hereafter. For me, the celestial ideal is one man and one woman united, and while I know that view might stir some debate, it’s where my heart rests.

Throughout my life, I’ve wrestled with how women have been treated and viewed, both in the church and beyond its walls. I’m truly grateful to be living in a time when real progress is happening, especially within the church. I’m so appreciative of the brethren and the meaningful steps they’re taking! Still, there are some things that weigh on me. Just to clarify, I don’t consider myself a modern feminist—I feel the movement has drifted from its roots and now pushes ideas, like equating transgender women with biological women, that I can’t support. In my mind, transgender women aren’t women in quite the same way.

If I had to describe my stance, I might call myself an egalitarian—yes, it carries some political weight, but it captures how I see men and women as equal yet distinct, like two beautiful pieces of a divine whole. I deeply value the doctrine that men hold the priesthood to serve others, just as I cherish women’s sacred role to nurture and teach, often through motherhood—though I know not every woman becomes a mother, and they can live out that calling in so many wonderful ways. I’m not one to push for women’s ordination to the priesthood, but I do find myself missing some of the privileges we once had, like when women in the early church could bless the sick. When our roles come together, I believe it creates something truly harmonious.

What troubles me, though, is the sense that women’s voices and perspectives don’t always seem to matter as much as men’s—except maybe in certain callings. Too often, I feel overlooked by men who then offer well-meaning but empty comments like, “Women are more faithful than men—that’s why more of them will be in heaven.” That just doesn’t sit right with me. In our culture, motherhood is often lifted higher than fatherhood, but I see them as equally essential. After all, we pray to our Heavenly Father for guidance. I’d love to hear more about women in the church—both from history and today. The scriptures don’t say much about them, and I wish we honored the women of the gospel as much as we do the men and prophets.

I’m not looking for attention or a big role—I just want women to be part of the discussion. I also wonder why we still separate Sunday School by gender. I’d love to see callings built more around partnerships—like husbands and wives serving together—rather than splitting priesthood holders and women apart. It feels important for men and women, boys and girls, to learn about each other’s divine roles side by side. Same goes for church activities—I’d rather see events that bring us all together instead of dividing into Relief Society or Elders’ groups. Most couples want to spend that time with each other, and we could design things to include singles without making it all about family stuff.

Above all, I’m praying for more revelation about our Heavenly Mother. My love for my Heavenly Father and my Savior, Jesus Christ, runs deep, but I long for a divine feminine example to guide me. My dad was my rock growing up—he shaped my faith in huge ways—but it was my mom’s influence that made me who I am today. I want that kind of connection with my Heavenly Mother, too. I’d still pray to the Father and seek His wisdom, but I yearn to understand the feminine ideal I’m meant to strive for—to see the full picture of what men and women are meant to be together. I hope that longing isn’t out of place; it’s just what’s in my heart.

Sorry for going on so long! I hope my words don’t upset anyone—I’m sharing them with an open heart and a lot of faith. Thank you for hearing me out!

Welcome Ann. Sorry for the delayed response. Been kinda busy. But anyway, welcome.

There's much we don't know at this point about the roles of both men and women in the divine society of the Gods. We can only surmise how it looks based on how things are here. And how things are here aren't always necessarily Celestial in nature, even within the Church. And I don't mean that as a negative, just that God continues to reveal His will truth upon truth and as yet we don't have the full picture. As such, I don't see anything wrong with longing for additional insight of the true roles of women in the divine plan so long as we don't grow discontent with what God has chosen to reveal up to this point. Trying to force God's hand puts us great danger of getting revelation from the wrong source, which I'm sure you are aware of.

Moses 1:35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you.

I think this is a good scripture to keep in mind in your pondering. God deliberately withholds information from us about how things are beyond our tiny corner of the universe and our blip in time of eternity. I assume that is to keep us focused on the here and now. This requires faith in His plan for us and to some degree contentment with those truths He has chosen to reveal.

 

[LDSGator]

You aren’t alone my friend. One of the most faithful and Christ loving people I know in the church thinks exactly like you do. And I met her here on thirdhour. 
 

While there is still work to do, I truly believe the church is changing and in the next few years many of the things you are describing will be openly talked about and maybe even changed. 

[The Folk Prophet]

This is an interesting post and I have a lot of thoughts, which I'll get to eventually.

My overall thought though is that there is risk here, as in many things, of looking beyond the mark.

All of us have the same mark. That mark is the Savior. That should be the center of our approach to any issues.

Our roles in the kingdom are worth consideration. But at the core of those roles is the primary role we all have... to take on the name of the Savior and know Him. Worrying too much about other things can, as I said, amount to looking beyond the mark.

[zil2]

Welcome, @Ann!  Please forgive us for the late responses - it's partly caused by a technical issue related to one's first few posts needing moderator approval - that process keeps these new posts from showing up under "Unread Content" and so they often go unnoticed by those of us who are here every day.

I am a woman in her 50s who's been active in the Church my whole life. My thoughts and experiences on women and the Church tend to run very counter to the concerns many women express these days, so I'm going to need some time to try to figure out how I might express them without it seeming like I'm dismissing your concerns - because I'm not dismissive of them, yet I haven't ever experienced those same concerns...

Anywho, just wanted to say welcome, and sorry for missing your post when it was first made.

[Traveler]

Greetings @Ann.  I will make an attempt to respond.  I am an old guy that is at least a generation ahead of you.  I am a super nerd that is retired in the field of automation and robotics.  Rather than say I disagree with some of your thoughts – may I add to them some of my own thoughts.  I am concerned with this generation concerning marriage.  I strongly believe that there is much more to marriage than a covenant between a man and a woman.  At a minimum we need to remember that a Celestial marriage of necessity needs to also include G-d in the covenant.  I am also of the mind that a marriage includes a covenant of children and generations.  It is also my understanding (according to the Prophet Malachi) that the marriage sealing connects generations and includes all of G-d’s convent Celestial children.

I am unable to comprehend how any Celestial covenant includes any act or intent of the LGBTQ+ community.  I agree that we are commanded to love all of G-d’s children and to honor them as His children.  But I do no know how it is possible to include such in any Celestial covenant.  

As for polygamy, I have to little understanding to be of much help – except that if G-d commands us so, that we ought to comply.  My great grandfather was a polygamist.  But when he first commanded, he and his wife refused.  Only after meeting personally with the prophet did my great grandfather and his wife include a second wife in their covenant.  Both recorded that they did not understand polygamy and its importance.  Unfortunately, neither he or his wife ever explained what was important about polygamy.  My one wife has been enough of a challenge for me.  I do not feel I have sufficient understanding to make any recommendations to anyone beyond having faith in G-d and his commands.

Concerning the roles of men and women concerning the priesthood.  I take my understanding from what is taught in the scriptures and the temple.  Mainly that in scripture a man is not without a woman nor is a woman without a man before G-d.  In the temple we are taught about G-ds and G-ddesses, priests and priestesses.  Anciently that title of g-d and priest could be given to the same individual.  I assume that plays out as well for g-ddesses and priestesses.  I conclude that there is no G-d without a G-ddess and no priest without a priestess; and vise versa.  I do not believe it possible to pray to our Father in heaven without including our Mother in heaven.  Since Jesus commanded that we address only our Father in heaven, I do not believe we should not specifically address our Mother in heaven.  That is unless or until we are commanded otherwise.

I am open to discuss any point or possibility.

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

On 4/5/2025 at 7:13 PM, Ann said:

Hello! I’m a woman deeply committed to my faith and the church, with a strong testimony of the gospel that means the world to me. Lately, though, I’ve been feeling a bit isolated in my thoughts and emotions, which has me wondering if others might feel the same way. I find myself agreeing with many ideas shared by progressive LDS members, though I differ when it comes to LGBTQ matters. To be clear, I wholeheartedly believe in showing love and ensuring our LGBTQ brothers and sisters have a place in both the church and society. But when it comes to celestial marriage, I hold firm that it will always be between one man and one woman. Polygamy, to me, feels like something that came up because we live in a flawed, fallen world—I trust it’ll all work out in the hereafter. For me, the celestial ideal is one man and one woman united, and while I know that view might stir some debate, it’s where my heart rests.

Throughout my life, I’ve wrestled with how women have been treated and viewed, both in the church and beyond its walls. I’m truly grateful to be living in a time when real progress is happening, especially within the church. I’m so appreciative of the brethren and the meaningful steps they’re taking! Still, there are some things that weigh on me. Just to clarify, I don’t consider myself a modern feminist—I feel the movement has drifted from its roots and now pushes ideas, like equating transgender women with biological women, that I can’t support. In my mind, transgender women aren’t women in quite the same way.

If I had to describe my stance, I might call myself an egalitarian—yes, it carries some political weight, but it captures how I see men and women as equal yet distinct, like two beautiful pieces of a divine whole. I deeply value the doctrine that men hold the priesthood to serve others, just as I cherish women’s sacred role to nurture and teach, often through motherhood—though I know not every woman becomes a mother, and they can live out that calling in so many wonderful ways. I’m not one to push for women’s ordination to the priesthood, but I do find myself missing some of the privileges we once had, like when women in the early church could bless the sick. When our roles come together, I believe it creates something truly harmonious.

What troubles me, though, is the sense that women’s voices and perspectives don’t always seem to matter as much as men’s—except maybe in certain callings. Too often, I feel overlooked by men who then offer well-meaning but empty comments like, “Women are more faithful than men—that’s why more of them will be in heaven.” That just doesn’t sit right with me. In our culture, motherhood is often lifted higher than fatherhood, but I see them as equally essential. After all, we pray to our Heavenly Father for guidance. I’d love to hear more about women in the church—both from history and today. The scriptures don’t say much about them, and I wish we honored the women of the gospel as much as we do the men and prophets.

I’m not looking for attention or a big role—I just want women to be part of the discussion. I also wonder why we still separate Sunday School by gender. I’d love to see callings built more around partnerships—like husbands and wives serving together—rather than splitting priesthood holders and women apart. It feels important for men and women, boys and girls, to learn about each other’s divine roles side by side. Same goes for church activities—I’d rather see events that bring us all together instead of dividing into Relief Society or Elders’ groups. Most couples want to spend that time with each other, and we could design things to include singles without making it all about family stuff.

Above all, I’m praying for more revelation about our Heavenly Mother. My love for my Heavenly Father and my Savior, Jesus Christ, runs deep, but I long for a divine feminine example to guide me. My dad was my rock growing up—he shaped my faith in huge ways—but it was my mom’s influence that made me who I am today. I want that kind of connection with my Heavenly Mother, too. I’d still pray to the Father and seek His wisdom, but I yearn to understand the feminine ideal I’m meant to strive for—to see the full picture of what men and women are meant to be together. I hope that longing isn’t out of place; it’s just what’s in my heart.

Sorry for going on so long! I hope my words don’t upset anyone—I’m sharing them with an open heart and a lot of faith. Thank you for hearing me out!

Are you praying for more personal revelation, or for more prophetic revelation about our Heavenly Mother? I suppose different personalities approach revelation differently, but I would begin with what I can receive about what I am looking for before waiting on a Prophet to receive more for me.

[Carborendum]

Ann, most of what you wrote is fairly common, even among many conservative sisters in the Church.  And I don't think you're wrong about most of it.

Now that we know that we agree more than we disagree, please allow me to comment on certain points of clarification.

On 4/5/2025 at 6:13 PM, Ann said:

Polygamy, to me, feels like something that came up because we live in a flawed, fallen world

Yes... for a million flaws in the world.  But, it was commanded by God.  It is important to note that most of the first generation of the church did not want to participate.  They thought it was an ancient practice that was not inspired.  But it turns out that it was.

We may never know or understand all the principles surrounding it.  But it is certain that it was the Lord's will, and it was in accordance with the principle found in King Benjamin's speech.

Also consider that most of history shows that men went astray, but women remained firm.  And the Church (or whatever equivalent for whatever era) stayed strong.  But a few times in history, when women eschewed religion, and men stayed firm, the Church fell.  And this is what is happening now.  For the first time in American history, we're seeing more women leaving religion than men.  And ALL churches are suffering.  So, this is not just an LDS phenomenon.  It is almost ALL religions and sects.

On 4/5/2025 at 6:13 PM, Ann said:

What troubles me, though, is the sense that women’s voices and perspectives don’t always seem to matter as much as men’s—except maybe in certain callings. Too often, I feel overlooked by men who then offer well-meaning but empty comments like, “Women are more faithful than men—that’s why more of them will be in heaven.” That just doesn’t sit right with me. In our culture, motherhood is often lifted higher than fatherhood, but I see them as equally essential.

Well, I'm afraid that this is just a mixed bag that developed as a reaction to the status quo.  Believe it or not, to the God-fearing American Christian, it was pretty egalitarian among men/women.  It doesn't seem that way when we look at things from a secular perspective.  But by the meaningful spiritual criteria, women have been fairly equal.  But something happened in the 70s.  The proper push-pull balance was thrown all over.  One example: male chauvanism in spiritual things went so far to one side, that to compensate, we started saying that women were more spiritual than men.  But the truth has always been that we need to be equally yoked, but assigned different complementary roles in the governing of the family.  It has always been about the family.

On 4/5/2025 at 6:13 PM, Ann said:

After all, we pray to our Heavenly Father for guidance. I’d love to hear more about women in the church—both from history and today. The scriptures don’t say much about them, and I wish we honored the women of the gospel as much as we do the men and prophets.

I would encourage you to learn all you can about Eliza R. Snow.  Growing up, I'd heard her name and knew she was a priminent figure.  But when I learned in recent years about so many trials she went through and all the leaps she made for women in the Church, I am in awe of her.

Truly, if she would enter the room, I would have knelt before her.  Not in worship, but in sincere admiration.  I just don't know of any women other than my wife that I'd feel such admiration for.  I think it is because so many women are now falling away and choosing dark paths.

On 4/5/2025 at 6:13 PM, Ann said:

I’m not looking for attention or a big role—I just want women to be part of the discussion. I also wonder why we still separate Sunday School by gender.

Sunday School?  When did we do that?  I taught SS for a long time.  We had both men and women in the class, and both participated.  What is your ward doing?

On 4/5/2025 at 6:13 PM, Ann said:

I’d love to see callings built more around partnerships—like husbands and wives serving together—rather than splitting priesthood holders and women apart.

Actually, our ward is doing just that.  The ministering program is creating "pods" (that's what a brother in the ward called it).  There are groups of 5 households of people who are all over the ward boundary.  They all teach each other and get together with each other.  After a while, they will rotate.  But husbands and wives will all be part of the same circle of households.

On 4/5/2025 at 6:13 PM, Ann said:

It feels important for men and women, boys and girls, to learn about each other’s divine roles side by side. Same goes for church activities—I’d rather see events that bring us all together instead of dividing into Relief Society or Elders’ groups. Most couples want to spend that time with each other, and we could design things to include singles without making it all about family stuff.

I kinda see where you're getting this from.  And there is some wisdom in this.  But I think that it is also important to have men and women also do things separately.  

Without going into too much detail, I will tell you about my BIL.  He divorced about a year or two ago, and just remarried a couple of days ago.  What he found was that there was a great support group in society, government, and Church for his ex-wife.  But there was nothing for men.  A few spoke to him at Church.  No one could really offer anythying.  Most people automatically assumed that he was to blame because he was the man.  (To be clear, it was 90% his ex's fault for the divorce).

But during the time of recovery, he found a men's support group made up of Christian men.  They did wonders for most of the group.  Not him.  Only one person in the group kept encouraging him to continue in the group.  The rest were anti-Mormons.  Imagine how that made my BIL feel.

On 4/5/2025 at 6:13 PM, Ann said:

Above all, I’m praying for more revelation about our Heavenly Mother. My love for my Heavenly Father and my Savior, Jesus Christ, runs deep, but I long for a divine feminine example to guide me. My dad was my rock growing up—he shaped my faith in huge ways—but it was my mom’s influence that made me who I am today. I want that kind of connection with my Heavenly Mother, too. I’d still pray to the Father and seek His wisdom, but I yearn to understand the feminine ideal I’m meant to strive for—to see the full picture of what men and women are meant to be together. I hope that longing isn’t out of place; it’s just what’s in my heart.

If we look at the Old Testament, it is pretty clear why we don't explicitly name Her in our prayers/worship and liturgy.  But She is there.

On 4/5/2025 at 6:13 PM, Ann said:

... like when women in the early church could bless the sick...

No, it was not really like that.  The statement given by the prophet at the time was that women could give prayers asking for healing as anyone can.  And if they felt to do so, there was nothing forbidden about a woman putting her hands on the head of the one being prayed over.  But this never meant that she was "giving a blessing by virtue of the priesthood."

But because as they say... it looked like a duck and quacked like a duck, the rumor was that women could hold the prietshood and give priesthood blessings.  And it appears this was what you had heard about at some doing.

Well... a later prophet caught wind of this false doctrine circulating and made a declaration,"OK... everybody, out of the pool!"  He agreed that there was nothing wrong with the previous procedure "per se."  But the fact that people were getting the wrong impression was something he was not willing to propagate.

 

Edited Monday at 02:31 PM by Carborendum

[mirkwood]

On 4/5/2025 at 5:13 PM, Ann said:

Hello! I’m a woman deeply committed to my faith and the church, with a strong testimony of the gospel that means the world to me.

 

You might consider the youtube channel: Women & Priesthood hosted by Rachael (can't remember her last name.)  She is an active faithful LDS woman who has some interesting videos on these topics.  I have not watched them all but the ones I have watched ring true/positive.

[JohnsonJones]

There have been some changes within the church and how it teaches and does things during my lifetime.  I am a convert, so there probably have been even more policy changes within the church in my lifetime than I know.

Most of these changes are around policy, but as the policies change I find that much of what was once known is no longer known.  It is as if people have gotten so wicked that things are now being taken away which once was common.

One of those areas pertain to the Priesthood, or the orders of the Priesthood.  I have mentioned it a long time ago that there are several orders of the Priesthood, and in order for a man to enter the highest order, it must be done via Celestial Marriage or Sealing.  In the past, when one reflects on the things we said and promised (which are things I really cannot go over here, but I may in the Temple with approval from those who preside there), that priesthood is not a male only item, but a joint item.  It is something that is held by a couple.  The man, as the head of the household exercises the rights to it, and the authority, but it is also something his wife is able to also exercise (or was, at the time).  It is in her husbands absence that at times, a wife could call down upon these powers of heaven in situations where it was needed.  They would be able to bless their families (or in one case, animals) with that power.  It shows that the man needs the woman, and the woman needs the man.  That the Father is the head of the household, as the Lord is the head of the Church.

You are correct, though it is no longer really seen or practiced, in the past there are stories where women would call upon their husbands priesthood to call upon the blessings of heaven as was seen as their right.

I do not know if this would go over well with women of the Church today or not.  Policy has changed much of what is said and done, and some of the things in the Temple have changed to reflect these things. 

Modern policies have changed some of the perceptions of these ideas and they are no longer as strongly reinforced within the Temple or other areas of the church. 

In that light, I do not have all the answers to Polygamy.  I know my wife hates the idea of it.  I do not think that is a particularly unusual response towards it within the church.  I know that by the time I joined the church it was no longer practiced in general (or at least the idea that while in this world one could be married to multiple spouses that were all alive), and had not been practiced for some time.  They still practice a spiritual form of it as we can see from the President of the Church and one of his counselors. 

I know it can deeply trouble some.  I know some (I get the idea that Sister Wendy Nelson, the prophet's wife today) gain comfort that it is something that can be done. 

I don't have any answers of comfort on this one for you except that I know many individuals (and it's men and women) that are greatly disturbed by the idea, and you are not alone in your feelings. 

Edited Monday at 10:37 AM by JohnsonJones

[zil2]

Decided to tackle one subject at a time...

On 4/5/2025 at 5:13 PM, Ann said:

Heavenly Mother

Go to Rachael's YouTube channel, as @mirkwood suggested.  To be clear, she's not one of those women who wants priesthood offices or to pray to Heavenly Mother or any other such thing. As near as I can tell, she is entirely faithful to the teachings of the Church.

I don't have thoughts on this beyond what you can find there.

[zil2]

On 4/5/2025 at 5:13 PM, Ann said:

Polygamy, to me, feels like something that came up because we live in a flawed, fallen world—I trust it’ll all work out in the hereafter. For me, the celestial ideal is one man and one woman united, and while I know that view might stir some debate, it’s where my heart rests.

Scriptures also make it clear that those who were sealed to multiple women in mortality will be sealed to them in eternity.  (Or so says my memory.  I can go hunting, if needed, but this is inherent in the sealing power.)

I believe polygamy, in those instances when it was authorized by God, was established by God. If it were only for mortality, we could say it's only to raise up seed to the Lord.  But I don't see how we can make that claim.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm quite certain polygamy will be a part of the Celestial Kingdom.  And I can see only on possible reason for this (given that our God is a God of order):

There will be more women worthy of Celestial glory and desiring to be sealed in the new & everlasting covenant of marriage than there will be men.  Really, this is the most logical conclusion.  If God knows the end from the beginning, if we really believe He's omniscient, then He's known all along exactly who will end up in what kingdom, and what the ratio of men to women is. Mortality hints that this ratio is a naturally occurring phenomenon.

Obviously, polygamy facilitates what scriptures have mentioned: raising up seed to the Lord.  But I don't believe this would necessarily explain why such relationships exist in eternity - certainly, it will be one of the benefits for participants, but I think it's a following benefit, not a causal motivation - otherwise, there would be competition for the most wives out of the available pool of women and some men wouldn't have wives... (to put it in base, mortal terms).

Two of the thoughts that comfort me are (1) the teaching in the Book of Mormon that monogamy is the norm - I expect that to be the case in the Celestial Kingdom, and (2) the fact that if you sit around and think about it long enough, the thought of putting up with your husband for eternity (which is a really, really long time), starts to make it seem like being able to send him off for someone else to take care of for a while starts to sound rather appealing...   (Yes, that's partly a joke, but seriously, eternity is a long time.)

[zil2]

On 4/5/2025 at 5:13 PM, Ann said:

LGBTQ

I don't have anything to add to what you've said. The Church is handling this well, IMO.

I know beyond doubt that the Family Proclamation is correct and teaches eternal, unchanging truth. Those who hope for changes in the Church regarding sexual orientation or chosen gender rather than biological sex are hoping in vain.

[zil2]

On 4/5/2025 at 5:13 PM, Ann said:

I also wonder why we still separate Sunday School by gender. I’d love to see callings built more around partnerships—like husbands and wives serving together—rather than splitting priesthood holders and women apart. It feels important for men and women, boys and girls, to learn about each other’s divine roles side by side. Same goes for church activities—I’d rather see events that bring us all together instead of dividing into Relief Society or Elders’ groups. Most couples want to spend that time with each other, and we could design things to include singles without making it all about family stuff.

I'm assuming "separate Sunday School by gender" is an error, and you mean Elder's Quorum and Relief Society meetings, Aaronic Priesthood Quorums and YW.  I doubt this separation will change, since I think men and women each benefit from being able to speak together without the other sex present.  Your idea of some class that focuses on husbands and wives learning together sounds nice, but then what do you do with all the single people?  (More than half the adult membership of the Church is single.)  If you're focusing on "callings built more around partnerships" and all the tings related to those partnerships, it's not going to include singles well - or it's not really going to be about partnerships.

I simply see no way to accomplish your desire without driving a wedge between the married and single adults in a ward (and that wedge is already large enough).  My inability to see doesn't mean it isn't possible, but I've yet to experience anything that seems like this could work well for all...

And are you certain most couples want to spend all their time together (which is what it would amount to if we stopped having separate meetings and activities)?  Because I've heard more than one person express that they're glad we have separate meetings sometimes.   What about them?

NOTE: I'm not trying to be argumentative or discouraging, just raising thoughts to consider.

Whatever else is true, the Lord is in charge and I trust that He will guide us in the way He knows is best.

[zil2]

On 4/5/2025 at 5:13 PM, Ann said:

Throughout my life, I’ve wrestled with how women have been treated and viewed, both in the church and beyond its walls. I’m truly grateful to be living in a time when real progress is happening, especially within the church. I’m so appreciative of the brethren and the meaningful steps they’re taking! Still, there are some things that weigh on me. Just to clarify, I don’t consider myself a modern feminist—I feel the movement has drifted from its roots and now pushes ideas, like equating transgender women with biological women, that I can’t support. In my mind, transgender women aren’t women in quite the same way.

If I had to describe my stance, I might call myself an egalitarian—yes, it carries some political weight, but it captures how I see men and women as equal yet distinct, like two beautiful pieces of a divine whole. I deeply value the doctrine that men hold the priesthood to serve others, just as I cherish women’s sacred role to nurture and teach, often through motherhood—though I know not every woman becomes a mother, and they can live out that calling in so many wonderful ways. I’m not one to push for women’s ordination to the priesthood, but I do find myself missing some of the privileges we once had, like when women in the early church could bless the sick. When our roles come together, I believe it creates something truly harmonious.

What troubles me, though, is the sense that women’s voices and perspectives don’t always seem to matter as much as men’s—except maybe in certain callings. Too often, I feel overlooked by men who then offer well-meaning but empty comments like, “Women are more faithful than men—that’s why more of them will be in heaven.” That just doesn’t sit right with me. In our culture, motherhood is often lifted higher than fatherhood, but I see them as equally essential. After all, we pray to our Heavenly Father for guidance. I’d love to hear more about women in the church—both from history and today. The scriptures don’t say much about them, and I wish we honored the women of the gospel as much as we do the men and prophets.

I’m not looking for attention or a big role—I just want women to be part of the discussion.

Here is the bulk of your concerns and the area where my own feelings and experiences diverge (as far as I can tell) from that of many women - probably younger than me.  Though perhaps only in magnitude with what you wrote above.  (Other women want the Aaronic & Melchizedek priesthood, its offices, and its duties, authority, and perceived power - they're confused.)

However, I agree that it often seems that men are not as interested in listening to what women have to say as women would like them to be. Note that it may only seem that way, and it may not seem that way to men. It's debatable whether this is from the world (probably), based on the differing structures of our brains (very probably), culture (certainly), near history (no doubt), or the Church¹ (probably not), or whatever else I'm not thinking of (likely).  It's also debatable whether women's desires in this regard are reasonable and correct.  Perhaps there's some middle ground and both sexes need to "give".  The only solution I see is for individuals to choose to work together on learning to communicate with each other. There is no way to force it. Encouragement will work slowly.  I see no solution to this problem short of the Second Coming.

¹I do not mean the membership or even leadership, I mean its structure and truths as revealed by God.

 

Some questions, just for pondering:

Are you sure that it's the Church that doesn't value women's "voices and perspectives" as much as men's?  Or could that simply be a problem brought in from the world around us?

Are you sure that this is a real problem in the Church as opposed to an erroneous perception pushed by people with an agenda?  Or as opposed to a problem with specific individuals who learned their behavior elsewhere?

Is it possible that whatever problems there may be, they aren't nearly as bad as they are made to seem by certain loud voices?

Is it possible that women don't value men's voices as much as those of other women?  (And flip all the above questions around. Might they also be valid when you swap the men's and women's places in the question?)

From day 1, Satan has been trying to separate the man and woman that God joined together. There's no reason to think he's not coming at that goal from every possible angle.  It's worth considering.

Men and women of God are, I hope, trying to learn how each other thinks and communicates.  They are, I hope, trying to understand their differences so that they can work together less by ignoring and working around the differences, and more by making the most of them.  But that's only a hope.  Whatever else is true, it will be a long time before we overcome Satan's efforts to divide.

What "meaningful steps" are the brethren taking?  Can you give me specific examples of things they've done that address your concerns?

 

Regarding women giving blessings and priesthood and such, please watch these three videos and see if they widen or alter your perspective any.  The titles sound iffy, almost as if these might be approaching apostate, but they're not. I assume the titles are designed to get people to watch.  As far as I can tell, they don't teach anything false - to the contrary, I wish these things were taught this clearly in the Church now (and decades ago), in the way these videos present them.  (There is one thing that I'm not sure they have entirely right, but I prefer to wait and see anyone else here watches and addresses it.)

False Traditions around the Priesthood PART 1

Part 2

Part 3

IMO, these are really good to help women understand the priesthood better.  Happy to talk more about them after you watch, if you wish.  Indeed, I'd be interested in discussing them with anyone, and in knowing what any priesthood holders who watch them think.

Edited yesterday at 01:32 AM by zil2

[HaggisShuu]

On the topic of Heavenly Mother, I have a few personal thoughts. 
Joseph F. Smith taught that in a family, the priesthood holding father is the ultimate authority who presides, and the mother is the primary nurturer. He said this "patriarchal order" continues into eternity. Part of the patriarchal order is that both parents are equals in this world and are responsible for the care and teaching of their children, and as Heavenly Father and Mother are exalted humans, they are subject to this system as well. 
Therefore, I think that it is possible for Heavenly Mother to communicate with us in some way. I don't agree with praying to heavenly mother, but I think if you reverently to pray to Heavenly Father with the goal of coming closer to both our Heavenly parents, then it becomes acceptable to ask our heavenly father, about Heavenly Mother. 
 

Secondly, in the initiatory women are ordained as priestesses in the afterlife. I therefore believe that Heavenly Mother as an exalted being, (and I'm assuming a priestess) has some involvement in the priesthood, and a level of interaction with the church. 
 

This is all pure speculation of course, but I don't believe it is contrary to any teachings. 

Edited Monday at 06:20 PM by HaggisShuu

[Carborendum]

3 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

This is all pure speculation of course, but I don't believe it is contrary to any teachings. 

No, it is not.  Almost all of what you posted has been said by prophets in not-so-many-words.

The danger of emphasizing our belief in a Heavenly Mother comes when we tend to believe that our Heavenly Parents are somehow of different minds. 

They are both perfect. They are perfectly in harmony with each other.  They are perfectly loving to their children. They would both provide the same answers to the same problems. 

So, I don't see how some people (especially women) who get it into their heads "My Father hasn't been fulfilling my needs.  I know that my Mother would certainly treat me differently!"

No.  No, She wouldn't.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, HaggisShuu said:

......
Joseph F. Smith taught that in a family, the priesthood holding father is the ultimate authority who presides, .....

I am of a different understanding.  It is my understanding that presiding is very different than authority.  It is my understanding that the father does preside in a family but has no more authority than his wife.  I believe that to execute any authority in a family, the husband and wife must both agree.   For either a father or mother to assume authority without the other would be no different than an individual apostle to assume authority over the others.  It is not allowed and out of order.

 

The Traveler

[HaggisShuu]

15 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am of a different understanding.  It is my understanding that presiding is very different than authority.  It is my understanding that the father does preside in a family but has no more authority than his wife.  I believe that to execute any authority in a family, the husband and wife must both agree.   For either a father or mother to assume authority without the other would be no different than an individual apostle to assume authority over the others.  It is not allowed and out of order.

 

The Traveler

I was referring to this quote found in the Joseph F. Smith "teachings of presidents" manual. 

Quote

There is no higher authority in matters relating to the family organization, and especially when that organization is presided over by one holding the higher Priesthood, than that of the father. The authority is time honored, and among the people of God in all dispensations it has been highly respected and often emphasized by the teachings of the prophets who were inspired of God. The patriarchal order is of divine origin and will continue throughout time and eternity.

We also know from the Family Proclamation that a marriage is an equal partnership. I agree with you, in practice my marriage is a partnership of equals. We both have an equally important say, we both equally contribute to our way of life, we both equally respect each other. I do not see my wife as below me in any matters or at any times. But it would seem in our relationship dynamic, when it comes to important decision making, after my wife and I have discussed the matter at length, I more often than not make that final decision. Some may calling this "presiding" some may call it "authoritative". I think the terms can be used interchangeably. 
 

Something I found interesting. President Joseph F. Smith uses this term "patriarchal order" the Church's bible dictionary, explains that the greek root words which make up "Patriarch" mean father and leader respectively. Perhaps this is what wad intended when he used the word authority. A man who is capable of leading his family. 

[zil2]

Joseph F. Smith was a product of his time, as we all are.  I believe @Traveler has the more correct explanation of this relationship, and that our understanding will grow until every husband and wife are completely unified, as God is.

If you, @HaggisShuu, make the final decision and your wife agrees to that, it seems less authoritative to me and more like her delegating (or giving you her proxy vote).  At least, I hope it's more like that and less like other things it could be.   But I would hope that you both agree on the decision, as Traveler mentioned.

[HaggisShuu]

6 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

I was referring to this quote found in the Joseph F. Smith "teachings of presidents" manual. 

We also know from the Family Proclamation that a marriage is an equal partnership. I agree with you, in practice my marriage is a partnership of equals. We both have an equally important say, we both equally contribute to our way of life, we both equally respect each other. I do not see my wife as below me in any matters or at any times. But it would seem in our relationship dynamic, when it comes to important decision making, after my wife and I have discussed the matter at length, I more often than not make that final decision. Some may calling this "presiding" some may call it "authoritative". I think the terms can be used interchangeably. 
 

Something I found interesting. President Joseph F. Smith uses this term "patriarchal order" the Church's bible dictionary, explains that the greek root words which make up "Patriarch" mean father and leader respectively. Perhaps this is what wad intended when he used the word authority. A man who is capable of leading his family. 

Perhaps it is also this attitude which has lead to the undermining of women's voices that @Ann was referring to in her original post.
There are some horror stories in my ward of men being outrageously rude and dismissive to women in Ward council. 

[HaggisShuu]

1 minute ago, zil2 said:

Joseph F. Smith was a product of his time, as we all are.  I believe @Traveler has the more correct explanation of this relationship, and that our understanding will grow until every husband and wife are completely unified, as God is.

If you, @HaggisShuu, make the final decision and your wife agrees to that, it seems less authoritative to me and more like her delegating (or giving you her proxy vote).  At least, I hope it's more like that and less like other things it could be.   But I would hope that you both agree on the decision, as Traveler mentioned.

I would never do something without my wife's approval, you needn't worry about that. I was just remarking on how often she would rather just leave it up to me. Like the proxy vote idea you mention.

[zil2]

18 minutes ago, HaggisShuu said:

Perhaps it is also this attitude which has lead to the undermining of women's voices that @Ann was referring to in her original post.
There are some horror stories in my ward of men being outrageously rude and dismissive to women in Ward council. 

There are many who do not understand what "preside" means.  And I believe the misunderstanding comes into the Church from the culture around it (or the culture the member lives in / originates from).  I don't believe God ever taught any man to dismiss what women say as being worthless.  In the meantime, we wait for the Second Coming, because the needle isn't gonna move much before then.

I suppose I'm fortunate as I'm perfectly capable of dealing with men such as you describe (having been raised to think completely differently), but there are many women who can't and who suffer, and the world suffers from the suppression of the best within those women.

Edited Monday at 09:13 PM by zil2

[Anddenex]

On 4/5/2025 at 5:13 PM, Ann said:

Hello! I’m a woman deeply committed to my faith and the church, with a strong testimony of the gospel that means the world to me. Lately, though, I’ve been feeling a bit isolated in my thoughts and emotions, which has me wondering if others might feel the same way. I find myself agreeing with many ideas shared by progressive LDS members, though I differ when it comes to LGBTQ matters. To be clear, I wholeheartedly believe in showing love and ensuring our LGBTQ brothers and sisters have a place in both the church and society. But when it comes to celestial marriage, I hold firm that it will always be between one man and one woman. Polygamy, to me, feels like something that came up because we live in a flawed, fallen world—I trust it’ll all work out in the hereafter. For me, the celestial ideal is one man and one woman united, and while I know that view might stir some debate, it’s where my heart rests.

Throughout my life, I’ve wrestled with how women have been treated and viewed, both in the church and beyond its walls. I’m truly grateful to be living in a time when real progress is happening, especially within the church. I’m so appreciative of the brethren and the meaningful steps they’re taking! Still, there are some things that weigh on me. Just to clarify, I don’t consider myself a modern feminist—I feel the movement has drifted from its roots and now pushes ideas, like equating transgender women with biological women, that I can’t support. In my mind, transgender women aren’t women in quite the same way.

If I had to describe my stance, I might call myself an egalitarian—yes, it carries some political weight, but it captures how I see men and women as equal yet distinct, like two beautiful pieces of a divine whole. I deeply value the doctrine that men hold the priesthood to serve others, just as I cherish women’s sacred role to nurture and teach, often through motherhood—though I know not every woman becomes a mother, and they can live out that calling in so many wonderful ways. I’m not one to push for women’s ordination to the priesthood, but I do find myself missing some of the privileges we once had, like when women in the early church could bless the sick. When our roles come together, I believe it creates something truly harmonious.

What troubles me, though, is the sense that women’s voices and perspectives don’t always seem to matter as much as men’s—except maybe in certain callings. Too often, I feel overlooked by men who then offer well-meaning but empty comments like, “Women are more faithful than men—that’s why more of them will be in heaven.” That just doesn’t sit right with me. In our culture, motherhood is often lifted higher than fatherhood, but I see them as equally essential. After all, we pray to our Heavenly Father for guidance. I’d love to hear more about women in the church—both from history and today. The scriptures don’t say much about them, and I wish we honored the women of the gospel as much as we do the men and prophets.

I’m not looking for attention or a big role—I just want women to be part of the discussion. I also wonder why we still separate Sunday School by gender. I’d love to see callings built more around partnerships—like husbands and wives serving together—rather than splitting priesthood holders and women apart. It feels important for men and women, boys and girls, to learn about each other’s divine roles side by side. Same goes for church activities—I’d rather see events that bring us all together instead of dividing into Relief Society or Elders’ groups. Most couples want to spend that time with each other, and we could design things to include singles without making it all about family stuff.

Above all, I’m praying for more revelation about our Heavenly Mother. My love for my Heavenly Father and my Savior, Jesus Christ, runs deep, but I long for a divine feminine example to guide me. My dad was my rock growing up—he shaped my faith in huge ways—but it was my mom’s influence that made me who I am today. I want that kind of connection with my Heavenly Mother, too. I’d still pray to the Father and seek His wisdom, but I yearn to understand the feminine ideal I’m meant to strive for—to see the full picture of what men and women are meant to be together. I hope that longing isn’t out of place; it’s just what’s in my heart.

Sorry for going on so long! I hope my words don’t upset anyone—I’m sharing them with an open heart and a lot of faith. Thank you for hearing me out!

I have empathy for the way it appears women have been treated both within the Church, and within the world in general. I also have empathy for the way men -- who aren't in authority positions -- have been treated within the Church and within the world in general. This has been due to the natural man in us all. If we truly want to be honest within ourselves, if all men and women had been living just the 10 commandments alone we wouldn't see what we see today except for the governance of God's Kingdom.

What troubles me, though, is the sense that women’s voices and perspectives don’t always seem to matter as much as men’s—except maybe in certain callings. Too often, I feel overlooked by men who then offer well-meaning but empty comments like, “Women are more faithful than men—that’s why more of them will be in heaven.”

There are two parts to this statement, the first is I agree women have been overlooked by misguided men in the Church. The Church has progressed to help address those concerns, but as with all of the commandments coming from God both men and women are slow to listen and we get stuck in tradition. An easy example, the youth are supposed to lead out (preside) in their respective callings, but yet how often do we see adult leaders (men and women) disregard this counsel and still lead out?

This seems to be the same with men who hold the priesthood and preside; however, we need to be patient with leaders (men and women) who are still learning themselves. I know if a bishopric I had to speak more boldly to our bishop regarding some decisions that were about to be made with the young women. He, just like you and me, was still learning.

The other part is, we shouldn't be frustrated with well-meaning truthful comments. The probability of the statement being shared is true. Why do we think truth is empty? All truth is from Christ.

Above all, I’m praying for more revelation about our Heavenly Mother. My love for my Heavenly Father and my Savior, Jesus Christ, runs deep, but I long for a divine feminine example to guide me.

Me too, and we can learn about her through the Spirit, but what we learn we must keep sacred and hold it to our hearts. When more is revealed, through the Lord's servants - his prophets -- we can then share what we may already know.

In my studies and pondering with regards to Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother there are two questions that are important. The first is why does Heavenly Mother choose to be unsung? The second, if Heavenly Mother and Heavenly Father are one why do they both agree that we don't know more about her? It would be preposterous to think that somehow Heavenly Father tells a perfect glorified woman to sit back and just watch. That would be an exercise of unrighteous dominion, which brings us back to why is she OK with and chooses to be unsung -- at the moment -- except in name?

It has nothing to do with the Church, and has more (if not all) to do with our individual and collective righteousness as members. We have a hard time already with revealed words. Easy example, look at how many members now support homosexual marriage, and think that a man can be a woman and vice verse (and support it and raise the pride flag). If we can't understand and accept something so clearly taught as God made male and female after his own image, how the heck do we think we will understand something so important as our Heavenly Mother? The more we collectively as a Church body keep the commandments and turn to Christ the more revelation we will learn. And it wouldn't be surprising to me if the revealed doctrines Elder Bednar mentioned this past conference could include her -- or not. Either way, we patiently wait upon the Lord to reveal what he sees fit to reveal.

Keep that strong and committed faith, and no matter what you will be fine.

[Ann]

On 4/5/2025 at 5:13 PM, Ann said:

Hello! I’m a woman deeply committed to my faith and the church, with a strong testimony of the gospel that means the world to me. Lately, though, I’ve been feeling a bit isolated in my thoughts and emotions, which has me wondering if others might feel the same way. I find myself agreeing with many ideas shared by progressive LDS members, though I differ when it comes to LGBTQ matters. To be clear, I wholeheartedly believe in showing love and ensuring our LGBTQ brothers and sisters have a place in both the church and society. But when it comes to celestial marriage, I hold firm that it will always be between one man and one woman. Polygamy, to me, feels like something that came up because we live in a flawed, fallen world—I trust it’ll all work out in the hereafter. For me, the celestial ideal is one man and one woman united, and while I know that view might stir some debate, it’s where my heart rests.

Throughout my life, I’ve wrestled with how women have been treated and viewed, both in the church and beyond its walls. I’m truly grateful to be living in a time when real progress is happening, especially within the church. I’m so appreciative of the brethren and the meaningful steps they’re taking! Still, there are some things that weigh on me. Just to clarify, I don’t consider myself a modern feminist—I feel the movement has drifted from its roots and now pushes ideas, like equating transgender women with biological women, that I can’t support. In my mind, transgender women aren’t women in quite the same way.

If I had to describe my stance, I might call myself an egalitarian—yes, it carries some political weight, but it captures how I see men and women as equal yet distinct, like two beautiful pieces of a divine whole. I deeply value the doctrine that men hold the priesthood to serve others, just as I cherish women’s sacred role to nurture and teach, often through motherhood—though I know not every woman becomes a mother, and they can live out that calling in so many wonderful ways. I’m not one to push for women’s ordination to the priesthood, but I do find myself missing some of the privileges we once had, like when women in the early church could bless the sick. When our roles come together, I believe it creates something truly harmonious.

What troubles me, though, is the sense that women’s voices and perspectives don’t always seem to matter as much as men’s—except maybe in certain callings. Too often, I feel overlooked by men who then offer well-meaning but empty comments like, “Women are more faithful than men—that’s why more of them will be in heaven.” That just doesn’t sit right with me. In our culture, motherhood is often lifted higher than fatherhood, but I see them as equally essential. After all, we pray to our Heavenly Father for guidance. I’d love to hear more about women in the church—both from history and today. The scriptures don’t say much about them, and I wish we honored the women of the gospel as much as we do the men and prophets.

I’m not looking for attention or a big role—I just want women to be part of the discussion. I also wonder why we still separate Sunday School by gender. I’d love to see callings built more around partnerships—like husbands and wives serving together—rather than splitting priesthood holders and women apart. It feels important for men and women, boys and girls, to learn about each other’s divine roles side by side. Same goes for church activities—I’d rather see events that bring us all together instead of dividing into Relief Society or Elders’ groups. Most couples want to spend that time with each other, and we could design things to include singles without making it all about family stuff.

Above all, I’m praying for more revelation about our Heavenly Mother. My love for my Heavenly Father and my Savior, Jesus Christ, runs deep, but I long for a divine feminine example to guide me. My dad was my rock growing up—he shaped my faith in huge ways—but it was my mom’s influence that made me who I am today. I want that kind of connection with my Heavenly Mother, too. I’d still pray to the Father and seek His wisdom, but I yearn to understand the feminine ideal I’m meant to strive for—to see the full picture of what men and women are meant to be together. I hope that longing isn’t out of place; it’s just what’s in my heart.

Sorry for going on so long! I hope my words don’t upset anyone—I’m sharing them with an open heart and a lot of faith. Thank you for hearing me out!

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses! This is such a wonderful community. You've given me a lot to reflect on. I deeply believe in the truth of the Gospel and have no desire to stray, so it's been invaluable to connect with other members here and gain their perspectives, especially since I don't have many opportunities for that in my own ward.