Leaderboard

I'd (respectfully and privately) suggest to the bishop, and possibly the ward mission leader as well, that--legal niceties aside--the Church's good name is all over this one. Missionary efforts and public goodwill in your area will, to a large degree, depend on what the ward does now to make this right with the people whose property was damaged. Would it really kill the ward to do a bake sale, or send some elders over to do some grunt work, or . . . something? People can weasel out of their role in the garden, but whatever happened to "bearing one another's burdens" and all that? And if leadership won't act--that certainly doesn't prevent you from trying to scrape something together. :)

Your Ward has permission to use the land, they then should replace what one of their members burned. Comes out of the Ward budget.

People have a moral obligation. I guess people tend to forget that part when accountability is in play.

Can't someone take up a collection or something? As a user of the garden, even if I couldn't pay all, I would at least try to come up with something.

During a lesson about being careful with judging, and urging folk to offer gentle corrections, preferably grounded in strong spiritual relationships, I ask, "Is there ever a case where the sin just has to be judged, and the sinner 'put out?'" A few said no. Then I turned to the one case in the New Testament in which someone was put out of church: 1 Corinthians 5: 1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. Then I stopped and said, "This was 2000 years ago. Can I stop for a minute and just say ICK???!!!" One of the class, who'd witnessed disgusting behavior in her short life time, responded by saying "That's [explative] up!" That raised some eyebrows. I don't encourage course language in church, or elsewhere. Nevertheless, I grabbed ahold of the sentiment and said, "How refreshing! This young person still has the capability to be disgusted by sin! Schools, teachers, classmates, Hollywood--they all pound us with, "Who's to judge? Who's to say? How about the Word of God? How about God himself? How about basic human morality??? The church was proud of this fellow. Perhaps they said that he and his mom (perhaps step mom) were in a committed relationship. They were, after all, two consenting adults. The only noise to be heard was the heretical "Grace grace grace grace." Grace is beautiful. I need it still. However, it is God's response to repentance, not stubborn sinning. Maybe we're in trouble when there's a vulgar utterance in the church, and the preacher is actually relieved that someone still has a sense of righteousness?

Maybe the Relief Society is responsible. They are the ones that got permission and agreed to the conditions of using it.

I see an Eagle Scout project in the works here.

You can find standalone bibles that carry the Joseph Smith Translation. Some of them compare the Inspired Version with the King James Version. (follow the linkys if you're interested, you can also get them as ebooks).

Are you sure about this? I thought cars used to come with a hand crank that you used to regulate the air flow in your quadrant of the car.

Mary was praised for seeking Christ's presence. Martha was NOT blamed for her work. Rather, she was encouraged to make the first thing the first thing. I'm not sure how this is relating to a problem in larger Christianity--that sin no longer concerns us much. We're so eager to fit in, be relevant, be 'relational' 'missional' etc., that we have decided to help God out, by downplaying the sin stuff, and bold-facing the grace. Grace is essential for salvation. We don't come to God clean. However, where's the need for grace if we've become convinced there's no right or wrong? In fact, if post-modern relativism is correct, the ancient cry of Christian grace seems somehow judgemental too.

This isn't the "I wonder" thread.

The way I see it, church members were working the garden. Therefore, church members (the ward?) are responsible.

FWIW Amazon readers gave it mostly 5-star ratings (56 of them, I believe). The 3 who did not were arguing against the BoM itself, not this edition. So, it seems promising. If I run across one, I'll give it a going over, and post my own thoughts.

Last time I said something was [explative] up I was called a bigot. :) "Messed" up...I said "messed up". what did you think I said?!

What would President Monson do if he lit a field on fire? Oh wait...

I wonder if the roads are really big fences that keep the ants in an area. I am not wondering about the ones that get eaten by the chickens or the ones that use the trees that fall out of the woods and on to the roads as bridges. Dr T once said " I wonder what will come from my being here". I wonder if he knows some times topics like this are needed to provide the wonder in our lives. :)

I will agree that life is not fair, but the Lord is just. I've heard many times that children under 8 who die and those burdened with developmental disabilities, were brothers and sisters more righteous than the rest of us, therefore born just to gain a body before returning to God or living a life unaccountable to sin. While a nice sentiment, especially for those of us with loved ones that fit in either category, I'm not convinced it's the case. Why? Because on the flipside, I've often heard that those most righteous are reserved for the latter days, which might be our children now or grandchildren... So who really knows? Lastly, I can speculate all I want and perhaps critique The Lord's plan, but in the end I am incapable of calling out what is fair and not fair in the grand scheme of things in His plan.

It's not clear the child even believes in God. Then too, what is Shepherd to do if the daughter says, "Yes, I prayed. All I got was crickets?" Still, this is solid counsel. If I'm the dad, I'd remind my daughter to pray this prayer, but I'd leave it to her to wrestle with it. She's clearly making her own spiritual decisions now. No sense aggravating her by suggestion that she must report on her intimate spiritual searchings.

Ya know there is just something about this thread that doesn't sit right with me

Sounds like housing bubble 2.0. I do not know if we are in another housing bubble, however your concerns were very similar to many concerns I heard in '05-'06. Inflation is rising faster, just do it, get on the rung, etc. A good website for checking out current supply and prices across the country http://www.deptofnumbers.com/asking-prices/ They also have info. on there about incomes. Housing is one of the few assets that is highly correlated to income and mortgage rates. Housing is not tied to inflation in general, but wage inflation specifically. Unless there is an exogenous event, housing prices cannot rise much faster than incomes. The bubble in '06 occurred b/c banks were lending to individuals who clearly could not make the payments, NINJA loans, 5 year ARM, etc. More loans given to people = increased pool of buyers = higher prices. Lower rates = same monthly payment for higher prices. IMO, the US economy is a serial bubble economy and has been for the last 16-17 years. A few key metrics to understand if housing prices are out of line. In general a house should sell for 100-150x it's monthly rent, i.e. if rent is 1000/month, home price should be anywhere from 100k-150k. Home prices in general should be 2-3x the median income. If median income is 100k, median home prices should be 200-300k. These are rough estimates. Based on what I've seen, home prices are not bubblicious, but in many places they are certainly fairly valued. So unless incomes start rising, if prices keep increasing at another 10% yoy in a year or two look out, crash 2.0. In addition, housing goes in a general long-wave cycle of approximately 7-9 years. It isn't exact, but it is interesting, a housing slow-down occurred in 84-85, next one was 90-91, 2001 would have slowed down, except the Fed intervened from the dot-com crash to flood the banks with cash and kick-start the bubble . . . 7 years later is 2008 + 7 = 2015?? It's speculation and no one has a crystal ball, but the bigger point is to not buy out of fear. If you buy out of fear, you are in a very weak position and will end up doing something irrational. I read something once that stated something like "Very few things will determine your ultimate wealth in life as to when you buy a house"

I'm happy for the family, but I'm sure they'll be tested by the persecution they'll endure, indefinitely. I would agree with the thought process that the public does not know all the details pertaining to this event, which of course, is always a cash cow for the media.

Thanks for sharing your experience. That's wonderful.

Never heard of that. Of course that doesn't mean anything. I still call the man that was my Bishop when I was a teenager "Bishop."

April Wine

Zac Brown Band

I don't look at government to solve my problems. They make problems.

Talk to your Bishop and explain the situation. There is a missionary fund that can assist and sometimes even members of the ward will assist if they are asked.

I would second Traveler's response. I know every young men in our ward has been taught and read from the Oath and Covenant, they have read from D&C 20 and other chapters that specify their duties, however the one they remember -- the one they practice every Sunday. This new system, curriculum, the Church has for the Youth is wonderful. The struggle is changing the culture of teaching. At the same time, the duty rests upon the Father to teach the children their preisthood responsibility, the Church assists. I am hoping my three boys will be able to answer a question like yours fully.

To be honest I find it interesting that you teach a youth Sunday School class and find that your students do not seem to know the answers. If I was a betting person - I would bet you that if you asked the same question this next week - even though you just went over all the information the previous week - you would get much the same answers you got the first time. Rather than explain why this is; I would point you to the whole purpose of the Follow Me direction recently adopted in teaching the youth. In essence the objective is not to disperse information (which has been the objective in teaching for millennia)? But to train and encourage youth to study on their own. Your asking question is a good way of teaching and the way we have encouraged teachers to lead class discussions -- but misses the new objective which is to teach youth to ask the questions and seek out their own answers in order to gain or strengthen testimonies and change behaviors and lives. As the SS president in our ward I have struggled with this new method and our teachers for a year and a half now. Not that the teachers are not among the best in the church - just that changing the culture is more difficult than I ever thought. If you figure this out - please let me know. If you have not figured this out yet -- don't feel bad and please do not give up. You are the vanguard for perhaps the greatest effort in the restoration - I am convinced that your concern and efforts are as needed now as any have been in the history of man. We are preparing a generation for something that few generations before have ever faced.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormon-temple-building-process The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released a video, an infographic and a detailed text description of its approach to building temples on the Mormon Newsroom website Wednesday. The downloadable infographic provides an overview of the five stages: funding, site selection, design, construction and completion. The YouTube video expounds on these stages with comments from Elder William R. Walker, executive director of the Temple Department, as well as construction workers and others who oversee the process.

No it was what selfishness could cause (murder, breaking of commandments), I admit fully, I am a selfish human being, I dislike a lot of things and am very unmoving in my thoughts. But I don't use others, I have respect for most people I come across, I liked the other articles but this one, not so much. I don't see my introverted nature as a plight, it is just another part of who I am.

+1. While I know there are things like this that do happen (I've been mistreated myself by ward leadership, and I'm not a female or a feminist) I find that when there is a consistent pattern of supposed problems like this (assuming it isn't all fabricated to get a rise out of everyone) then there's something amiss with the offended more than the accused offenders. For example, we have a family in our ward that has gone inactive because of "abuse". I have been personally involved in much of the effort around them and there has been nothing but love, invitation, kindness, help, service, etc., etc. shown towards them. But according to them they are constantly abused, belittled, judged, mistreated, berated, hated, and marginalized. It's easy to throw one-sided accusations at church leadership. I wonder what the local leaders would say were they willing to accuse back. I wonder what would really come out in an honest, fair, both sides, legitimate assessment. These are easy, safe attacks on the church. The best the church can do to defend themselves is with content like in this letter, because the bishops and stake president don't publish the issues, tell their side of the story, etc., because it would break confidences and offend even worse. The church is, and has been, working to solve legitimate issues. The letter makes that clear for anyone who didn't already believe it (not that those who didn't believe it before will believe the letter). Frankly, the church is, and has been, working to solve non-legitimate, irrational issues too. It will never be enough. The efforts of Satan to tear down the church can never be satiated. No matter how many policy changes, doctrinal alterations, and management re-orgs occurred (even up to and including replacing the entire leadership of the church with women) it will NEVER be good enough for those unwilling to humble themselves and look past human imperfection to God's will, ways and means. We live a spoiled-brat existence in these latter-days. The current cultural climate breeds entitlement. Entitlement is not God's way.

At my lesson yesterday they said that they love my town because it's the first place they've been where people are actually approaching them and asking them for LDS materials (keep in mind, I live in a Conservative mainly Protestant area).

Grace is so wonderful. Mercy, so incredible. However, neither mitigates our sins. Our sins have not been declared understandable by God. We are not justified in our sin. Rather, we are FORGIVEN. Even the woman caught in adultery was never exonerated. Instead, Jesus displayed mercy, and told her to go and sin no more. Paul's words in Romans explained the purpose of the law. He also said that God is revealed, so we are without excuse. This world will be destroyed. Burned up. We're looking towards a new heaven and a new earth. What matters from our heart is whether or not we will, having felt/heard the wooing of the Holy Spirit, respond. Will we repent? Will we submit to God? If so, forgiveness is there. Never exoneration. Never approval or justification FOR our sins. Rather, we are justified by the horrific price of Jesus' shed blood--FROM our sins.

Quoting that guy in the first Jurassic Park movie:

Even if you believe Hinkcley was referring directly to the blood moons... many prophecies have multiple fulfillment. Anyways I think Avraham gileadi got it right. http://josephandjudah.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=77:turning-the-hearts-of-the-jews-to-the-prophets-and-the-prophets-to-the-jews&catid=5:viewpoints&Itemid=12 Titled: “Turning the Hearts of the Jews to the Prophets and the Prophets to the Jews” Which comes from this verse..

They actually just started their mission about two weeks ago, so I may have been one of the first to actually approach them!

I like the article. It brings out what is, perhaps, the key point that most miss when discussing virtues. The virtue to end all virtues, as one might put it, is obedience! Yes, Love God is the most important commandment (or virtue). Love your neighbor as yourself is the second. But obedience is requisite even to these, because without obedience, a commandment, even to love, is meaningless -- in that obeying is part of the defining character of what makes a command a command (obey me = I command). Of all the examples set by our Savior, obedience was, perhaps, the foremost. Jesus did His Father's will in all thing.

When I say, "The church is true" I mean it contains the fullness of the Gospel as it has been revealed, and it is still being revealed to us. That is not to say that I am saying there is no truth outside of our Church, but that it contains the fullness as it has been revealed. One of my favorite quotes from a President of the Church comes from John Taylor: "There were men in those dark ages who could commune with God, and who, by the power of faith, could draw aside the curtain of eternity and gaze upon the invisible world. There were men who could tell the destiny of the human family, and the events which would transpire throughout every subsequent period of time until the final winding-up scene. There were men who could gaze upon the face of God, have the ministering of angels, and unfold the future destinies of the world. If those were dark ages I pray God to give me a little darkness." Terryl and Fiona Givens wrote a book called "The God Who Weeps". In it, they use poetry and words of non-Mormons to really show that there is truth all around, but in the LDS Church is where all these truths come together.

When I, as a non-member, hear a member say, "The LDS Church is true," I understand that to mean mine is not--at least not in fullness. Where some of my fellow non-LDS may be mislead is in failing to understand that a non-restored church is not necessarily a condemned one. In traditional Christian teaching there is heaven and hell, right and wrong, Christian and not Christian. So, if a church says they are the true one, we immediately assume they mean all others are "false." If so, the others are condemend. Today, I do not hear all of that. It's more like when I say I am a "Spirit-filled" Christian, or I believe in the "full gospel." I do not deny that other Christians walk with the Spirit. I do not mean that others are lacking a sufficient gospel. Instead, I believe that my church allows a free reign of the Holy Spirit that most others would attempt to restrict. I mean that we not only preach salvation, we pray for the sick, and may even cast out a demon, if need be. Initially others were offended by our claims to the "full gospel" and to being "Spirit-filled." They thought we were saying they did not have the Spirit at all, and that their gospel was empty. Today most Christians acknowledge our orthodoxy, and even admit that the manifestations of God we see are authentic. Personally, I would not bother with hesitating to make the statement. Further, I argue against saying "I believe." It implies an uncertainty, or at least an unwillingness to defend the statement. If it's your faith, proclaim it confidently. If someone wants to take offense, but asks you how you could say such a thing, then tell them. Be kind but confident, and let agency do the rest.