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... that I have now officially joined and have officially been made an official member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. That being due to my baptism and confirmation yesterday. I have been meeting with the missionaries, posting on the forums, praying, studying scripture, visiting stakehouses and the Los Angeles Temple or attending services daily. That is, some activity every day. I have met a lot of new people. Of course a major topic is Utah. Inevitably someone is going there, coming from there, etc. I have had a chance to look back 52 years when my mother and I visited the Temple in Salt Lake City. She was a Mormon Tabernacle Choir fan (big fan) so we had to stop. In two weeks I will be there again. I also was able to recall 40 years ago stopping in front of the impressive looking Los Angeles Temple and praying. So it looks like there was just some inevitability to it all. And it has now come to pass. Now, if I can make it in happiness (a job?) to Utah this year to live, all will be right with the universe or at least part of it in Utah. The stake president early on said, or, you can just 'hang out' here (if you don't make it to Utah). Yes. dc Previous reference: http://lds.net/forums/topic/56658-utah-and-lds/#entry815683

Doesn't the mention of Hitler automatically end the thread?

Seems to me Hitler got an awful lot of pushback, too.(Yeah. I went there.)

I agree that the verses you quoted provide food for thought. However, until some modern day prophet or apostle says otherwise, I’m going to throw in with a couple of dead ones who said: "A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit."(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12) "But in order to enter into the celestial kingdom, which is the kingdom of exaltation, and the kingdom spoken of in the scriptures as the kingdom of God, one must accept and abide in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, adhering to the teachings, receiving the ordinances, and being true to the covenants which appertain to that salvation. The Prophet says a man may enter into the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom who has not been baptized with water and who has not in this life received these ordinances, but he can never enter into the celestial kingdom without complying with these eternal laws."(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2: 25) "Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329) "Question: Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required."(Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, pg. 147)

I (and der Fuhrer) yield.

It's not a simple substitution (Satan for Hitler) in the conversation but rather in the law. The likelihood of someone making a comparison to Satan's plan on an LDS thread is directly proportional to the the length of that thread. The likelihood is multiplied by a sizable constant when politics are involved.

Generally I wouldn't reply this way...but...since JaG opened the floodgate.... Hitler!

Funny. I was going to reply to this thread (below) by saying, "Didn't Hitler genuinely believe what he said too?" and then thought...no....Reductio ad Hitlerum.

Kate Kelly is so last year.

Congratulations, Dave! Just keep one thing in mind as you move along and progress in the gospel. The Church isn't just a nice religion with nice people and a nice choir. It isn't just a nice social club with nice bylaws. It IS in fact God's Church and Kingdom on the earth today, and HE does in fact preside over it; directing it through modern-day prophets and apostles. The Church is TRUE, and that's all that ultimately matters.

Agreed. No. But what I have noticed, is that the videos that exonerate cop behavior don't tend to get replayed ad nauseum on a 24-hour news cycle. Rather they get relegated to a blurb on page B-4 about how "internal reviews of body cam footage confirmed the officer's claim that he acted in self-defense, and no charges will be filed (darn it!)."Police aren't immune from the old adage that power corrupts; and there are probably some sick departments out there. But we also need to be aware that we are being provided with a carefully constructed narrative that is calculated to make us see the situation in a certain way, and ultimately pave the way for specific social policy changes. Be safe.

I agree in concept, LP; but when you ask "where's the rage on behalf of the innocent who are victimized by power-drunk cops?", I reply "it was wasted on behalf of miserable goons like Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown, who were painted as innocent even though the evidence revealed them to be anything but". The same people who told me I should be mad about those cases, tell me I should be mad about Freddie Gray. Maybe they're on to something this time--even a stopped clock is right twice a day, as the saying goes. But I can't help remembering the story of the boy who cried wolf and wondering whether there is some ulterior motive in play here.

I disagree. Riots don't just happen for no reason. I make no excuses for the looters and those committing violence, but the simple truth is that they happen in the first place when people feel disenfranchised by their own local government. As I said before, this comes as no surprise at all and it isn't because Baltimore is full of hoodlums. Not that there aren't plenty of hoodlums in Baltimore... don't get me wrong... But looters are opportunists. They take advantage of situations already underway. The frustration is from people who have been given good reason to not trust their local police and city government and that's what triggered this rioting. That does NOT justify racism.

Ok I'll chime in as the Baltimore guy. This was absolutely predictable. We saw this coming. Frankly I'm amazed it didn't happen sooner. Tensions in the community have been high for years, and the Freddie Gray incident was the spark that lit the flame. Good chance my work will be closed down tomorrow. I'm already getting text alerts that people need to stay indoors near campus. (I work at Johns Hopkins University).

Some people as we say "ain't got no prop'r fetchen up". See the "knock-out game" absolutely despicable. I think some of them are simply agitators (wouldn't surprise me if they are bused in and paid to cause problem); some are simply feed up with the fact that in many, many cases police are above the law And before anyone complains about the above, last year in GA cops no-knocked two homes which lead to 1 innocent man's death and put a newborn in the hospital for months (blew a hole in it's stomach)-no charges filed, no one is "responsible", the county won't pay for any medical bills for the baby. Crap just happens right? and no one is to blame, it's just a big oops! So yeah, a lot of people see incidents like that and get real ticked off. Combine "no prop'r fetchen up" with anger at cops and bad things happen. Not the right way to solve problems-it just makes it worse. Get the National Guard in play, put in Martial Law, take away more rights . . . ugh no good at all.

I don't know, Vort. I think I'd like the title King Daddy Snarky.

Interesting. On this, my latest pass through the Book of Mormon (maybe my 30th or 35th or so), I noticed for the first time how amazingly spiritual the "war" chapters of Alma are. They are a gritty and rubber-meets-the-road example of how the gospel is very real and how it applies to the situations you might be facing right this second. Mormon absolutely knew what he was doing in including the "war chapters", and without doubt was guided by the Spirit. Without those amazing chapters, the profound messages of the Book of Mormon would have been seriously compromised.

Indeed. I would rather have my arm ripped off than my head. That doesn't make losing my arm any more pleasant.

David is not alone in that belief. . I have a great deal of disdain towards labeling people racist as the word is so overused and most normal people have racism fatigue since it has been used as a battering ram for so many years. I tend to view all races as inherently prejudice toward the unknown and particularly toward those of different races. I live in and grew up in a small southern town and to this day there are areas of the city that white people should not walk through or near and that is on main streets and not even in the neighborhoods. The local football stadium has had and still has a section that if you are white you best not be found in during a football game if you don't want to get attacked. That problem is more pronounced in larger cities and is not isloated to the southern United States. Perception becomes reality when it is your day to day experience.

To your critics, your avatar serves as my rebuttal.

It occurs to me that my OP might not be clear. When I offered my mathematical proof and thought to end all contrary discussion, I was told, in effect, that in the "real world" it wasn't so easy. In this case, the "real world" did not mean "a world where 100 perfect logicians do not exist" or some such. Rather, the intent was that a proof may work on paper, but in an actual situation AS DESCRIBED, it was not workable. That is, if you actually put ten (or however many) "perfect logicians" in a room with the stated rules and under the stated conditions -- "perfect" enough to be able to reason out the problem -- they could not use my stated reasoning to arrive independently at the same conclusion. Rather, there would be confounding factors. It was this insistence that I was marvelling at, and wondering what people thought a "mathematical proof" meant. There was no idea that, you know, people aren't perfect, and most people couldn't reason this out, blah, blah. That wasn't at all the point. The point was that, if people COULD and DID reason it out, it would still be wrong. (According to my critics.)

Her 15 minutes were already gone. She is just looking for another 15 minutes and has not yet realized her own irrelevance.

I think the war stories are very appropriate. Are we not seeing so many of these same things today? The Book of Mormon was written for our time.

It's called "Thomas Marsh disorder". And it'll work out for him about as well as it worked out for Bro. Marsh.

It's a lot easier to pay out "shut up" money than to actually fix a broken system. Of course, this is made easier when all the attention is focused on the rioters and not on the root causes. IMHO The riots are a red herring. We know that'll blow over in a couple of days so that's what the media focuses on. Solving the issues that got us to this place... much harder. Easier to just blame the rioters with a little thinly veiled racism and ignore the misdeeds that triggered it in the first place. Anyone want to bet me there WON'T be more demonstrations and possibly riots if the officers who killed Freddie Gray don't suffer any consequences?

Don't forget about (attempted) murder. I envision Jack Sparrow and Captain Barbossa...two immortals locked in an eternal round of stabbing each other uselessly.

The LDS version is to compare something to Satan's plan.

I never said he was ashamed of her or of himself. I was being sarcastic in that his wife's petition gets denied so he leaves the church.

Her husband is so ashamed he left the church when the Church denied her petition for reconsideration.

I didn't mean one criminal once at one time. I mean the hundreds of thousands of crimes committed every year. Take a poll on this forum. I'm fairly certain that everyone has been a victim of some crime. That's the elephant I'm talking about. Or should we just ignore that so we can get a free tv? dc

I don't follow her but I hope she's able to be at peace. I don't have much interest in the loudest bark (from either side) but I can appreciate someone's genuine conviction of a belief. I'll stick to my guns and you'll stick to yours.

Ah. Thanks. Yet... we didn't even make a page before you mentioned it!

Well, my convert baptism was Sunday. Refreshments were served in the kitchen afterward. There is a kitchen beside two huge gyms. And there was everything, water, cupcakes, brownies cookies, at least a dozen items, which, sugar is not good for me. It was good, I think, from my point of view. Different people were involved in different aspects of the whole ceremony, Maybe 50 people. Music, speakers, witnesses, just the congregation watching, kids, and then it seemed like the refreshment committee was other people. So I got to meet and talk to a lot more people. Just more of the social aspect of it. Just good reinforcement for me. So I vote for refreshments, in the kitchen, if they have one, afterwards, or at someone's house. dc

I ought to be more loving, but I'm with Eowyn's interpretation. She (Kelly) craves the limelight.

Here's my thoughts. I'm sick of this story being the #1 story in my newsfeed every day.

And this is where that "assault rifle" comes in handy. If I own a business, I either do it myself or I hire a couple of sharpshooters put them on top of my store. Any person up to no good comes near, fire a warning shot . . .come any closer and take 'em out. Oh but wait a second . . .Baltimore has very strict gun control laws . . . The 2nd Amendment was built for this.

From the training I received as a Bishop with Mission President. He asked all of us not to serve refreshments following a baptism. He wanted the convert to leave the baptism at the end remembering the feeling they had from being Baptised. I have bought into that since the day I heard it. Just my opinion.

You and your critics are both right - there are no true perfect logicians in the real world. If there were - they would all leave on the 10th day. Those that argue against this are only displaying their own logical breakdowns. It is kind of like my brother's favorite statement about real world logicians. "There are 3 kinds - those that can do math and those that can't."

I am reminded of my freshman year in high school. Our algebra text presented one of those "proof that 2=1" problems. At first glance, their proof looked correct, but I could not bring myself to believe that 2=1. So I spent some time with the problem until I found the flaw in the logic. If you think someone's proof is wrong, it takes more than a "that can't be true" to negate the proof. You need to spend enough time and effort on the logic to find the flaw(s). FWIW, this also leads me to remember Alice's conversation about unbirthdays with Humpty Dumpty. To paraphrase, Alice explains that 365-1=364, HD says that it sounds right, but he will need to see the sum worked on paper, so Alice writes it out for him. He agrees that it appears to have been done correctly, but he doesn't have the time or inclination to think it through completely. Since inductive reasoning can be among the more difficult concepts to grasp, I wonder if the "that's good in theory but doesn't work in practice" is code for "I don't fully understand inductive reasoning, and, therefore, cannot find the flaw in your logic, but there must be one." To sum up, if someone presents a proof that I agree is valid, then I have to accept the conclusion. If I don't like the conclusion, then it is my job to find the flaw in the logic or to provide a "counter proof". Not sure if that helps at all. If nothing else, we got to remember Alice in her quest to be a queen, and that has to be worth something.

It is my personal opinion that baptism is not required for either of the other "Kingdoms" other than Celestial. The reason I do not believe that there is a baptism is for a couple of reasons. First it is my understanding that the other kingdoms will be directly tied to the resurrection. Thus those that will inherit the other kingdoms will be so resurrected. For example those that inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom will receive a Terrestrial resurrection. It is also my understanding that resurrection is ordered. The Celestial resurrection will be the first resurrection and that no one will be resurrected for any other kingdom until all Celestial individuals has completed their resurrection. The Celestial resurrection will not end until after the 1000 year millennium. It is also my understanding that Baptism is a physical ordinance that must be performed during the mortal probation. Either directly or by proxy. So if there is to be baptism for any other kingdom other than Celestial - how will they be baptized for the dead? If by proxy for the dead - who will perform the proxy baptisms?

In the past the Church has taken out an ad in the Musical's program. In essence it says something like "The Book is always better" Or "You've seen the Musical Now read the book" with information on how to get their own copy. I see no reason for this to not happen in Australia as well.

Maybe calling attention to it by protestation would be a good thing then. :)

I haven't seen it and not sure that I would just because I'm much more classical when it comes to musicals... I'm pretty sure there's a couple LDS members on here that have seen it and quite enjoyed it, I think I could even name them, but I'll let them come out and share their thoughts if they so choose. On the topic of poking fun. I know quite a few Catholic friends back in the day that didn't appreciate Sister Act with Whoopi Goldberg. I didn't find it offensive or meant to be, then again, I'm not Catholic.

You can let the musical change the way society views you as an individual Mormon; or you can let your own conduct as an individual Mormon change the way society views the musical.

Which as we all know is the true measure of something's worth.

I, for one, have no problem with sxfritz's suggestions; but I think we should realize that they will only take us "so far". I grew up in a VERY active youth program where the bishop annually added a couple thousand dollars of his own money to the fund so that we could take "super activities", road trips to temple dedications, etc. The program seemed effective; and we usually had very effective firesides/testimony meetings during these activities. But--you know what? Twenty years later, based on Facebook the ongoing activity rate for the kids who went through that program is probably less than fifty percent. Programs are great for keeping the weak Saints in the Church; and hopefully it buys us time to transform a few of those weak Saints into strong Saints. But ultimately, you can't "program" a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and the folks who haven't been able to develop those attributes will inevitably drift away. Because--for all the cool stuff the Church does, and teaches--living life as a Mormon is hard.

The very existence of a Savior providing an atonement for us suggests in the strongest terms that there is an unbridgeable gulf between us and God, that we cannot pay the price of our own sins. I know very well what the scriptures say about "they must suffer even as I", but note that those who so suffer are not heirs of eternal life. Somehow, gaining exaltation is utterly dependent on the atonement. But even with that in mind, it seems clear that any degree of divine glory requires baptism. We are given the ordinances of exaltation, not told what ordinances (if any) (and surely there are others) might be required for a non-exalted glory. But it does seem to me that baptism is required for any inheritance of glory. If I had the time, I would go through scripture and try to point out verses (such as the D&C verses you quote) that suggest this to me. I will try to be alert and make notes on this from this point forward; but even if I remember to do that, it will be years before I will have compiled the scriptures to try to make my point. At this time, I am going primarily by impressions made on my mind during past scripture study. I have read diligently, but I have not been a diligent student in carefully compiling my notes. One step at a time, i suppose.

while it does make light of quite a few things, i'd take it over the play that portrayed christ as a homosexual.... BUt still. In general the more something is hated the more it will be ridiculed. I think comparing to lehi's dream is appropriate.

Hope you find and get the help you need. Good luck!

I am happy to report that after 5 months of Bishops meetings, and a stake president approval, I was approved for rebaptism, set for March 21st. This process has not been an easy one, but to all those seeking it, don't give up hope. There is a light around the corner to those who seek it. 2 Nephi 27:23 For behold, I am God; and I am a God of miracles; and I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith.