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Hi Maureen - I realize that there are a lot of disparate voices here that aren't 100% on the same page about everything--and perhaps in past exchanges between the two of us, I have given you reason to suspect my motives in this particular interchange. But, might I respectfully invite you to focus on what I have actually written in this thread? My point is that any consumption of alcohol will impair one's intellectual/emotional/moral faculties to some degree. If someone can limit that impairment through experience, self-discipline, etc--that's great; but where I take issue is with the suggestion that consuming alcohol,within a certain threshold, doesn't create any impairment at all. I have no problem with the concept that one can be a "moderate" drinker in the sense that one can drink responsibly and still function in most day-to-day activities (though, I would hasten to assert, such a person would not be functioning "optimally" so long as there was any measurable amount of alcohol in their bloodstream). That said, I don't think God's much of a fan of the process or the thought patterns that underlie figuring out just how much is too much. And given that it's relatively easy to overindulge in something we need daily, whereas it takes some degree of premeditation to overindulge (or even just plain indulge) in something we don't need at all--yeah, I do think that even moderate or even light drinking is (generally speaking) probably more of an issue than gluttony. Your mileage, of course, may--and probably does--vary.

It is... However sometimes we muddy the water a bit. It is clear that a faithful member of the LDS church there is no good reason to drink alcohol. Nothing in moderation can out weight the penalties of disobedience to God. However in our zeal to encourage everyone to obey we can sometimes step over the line into untruths. Like calling it evil Christ did no evil... Christ drank wine. He even provided wine at marriage. It seems that many Biblical and Book of Mormon Prophets drank wine. Maybe it was because they didn't have better alternatives, and now it is possible to do so. Or maybe the Word of Wisdom's warning of "Conspiring Men" gives us a different danger that didn't exist before and will end at some point in the future. If so then at some future point the Word of Wisdom might no longer be needed according to the wisdom of God.

I actually agree with you, but Maureen's little snit puts me in no frame of mind to find reasons to support alcohol usage. Alcohol is a poison. I weigh over 200 pounds, yet if I were to drink just a pint of alcohol -- two cups -- I would probably die. The fact that people can survive lesser amounts of alcohol does not negate its toxicity. Consider the enormous social toll of alcohol -- the children beaten and parentless, the people murdered by drunk drivers, the lives shattered from addiction, the neglect, the broken homes, the fights, the rapes, the wasted lives. Then compare it with statistical suggestions that moderate (= little) use of red wine seems to contribute to a small decrease in heart disease -- no mechanism proposed or even suggested, just a small statistical correlation. Therefore, drinking alcohol really isn't that bad? Barf.

I may be frivolous, but I like the idea of a grave with a marker--and that my body was buried there. I won't be there, but it is still a sacred place of memory for those I leave behind. I attended a funeral once that was done Christian-style. The family was Vietnamese, and most of the relations were not Christian. They all (first generation immigrants) seemed so impressed that "Grandma's body was not burned." Somehow, in our extravagance we communicated the glory of God's creation of humanity. I wouldn't push my ideas on others, but I'm looking at the funeral expenses as an investment in the belief of the value of our lives.

That may be the real issue Eowyn. I do not believe Maureen is "arguing against beliefs". I think you have found it. We abstain from alcohol not because we perceive it as some great evil. But because God commanded it. It may or may not be a great evil for others, but that's up to them based on THEIR beliefs. Of course, it will make it much easier to abstain from alcohol if a person does perceive it to be a great evil. The basis is not the evil, but the commandment. As to non Mormons, alcohol may or may not be a great evil. It's clear Maureen recognizes that. dc

I think it's important to separate the chafe from the wheat. There are moderate social drinkers out there who have NONE of the laundry list of ills caused by alcohol. What's your solution? Ban or prohibit alcohol? I agree with you about the ills. There are many who should never drink. But there are others who have no problem with it. Now, my position? You know what it is. I stated it several times there. I don't drink. dc

I think that the point of the thread is that we as LDS demonize alcohol usage. We shouldn't as a general rule because it is not all bad. Do we theologically not believe in alcohol consumption?

Then they need to quit drinking water, because that sure looks like vodka. No apple juice either, because it looks like their kids have sippy cups of bourbon.

The articles might be relevant to the thread. They are not relevant to the question you've been asked...which is...what's the point of the thread -- what's you're objective here? LDS people don't generally give a hoot if alcohol has health benefits or not. Nor do we care if non-LDS people engage is it's usage -- at least not beyond the desire to convert.

To Evangelicals and other creed-based Christians, this whole topic is akin to blasphemy because, as the Pharisees said of Jesus, we think to make ourselves God's equal (in some future time). The belief in the Trinity came about to resolve controversies over God's nature. Was there one God or three? They chose (with some degree of intrigue) to go for the answer that there could only be one God who necessarily must possess all power and none other. Latter-day saints know from modern revelation that the Trinity is a false doctrine and that there are indeed three Gods who are organized into one Godhead. Thus, the example for us regarding our eternal relationship with God is Jesus Christ. We follow his path. He lived before he was born into mortality. Jesus prayed to his Father. He did the Father's will in submission. He honored the Father's authority. He was baptized. He submitted himself to the Father in all things and received ALL that the Father hath. Was there any power or authority that God did not confer upon his Beloved Son? Was there any good thing he withheld from Jesus that he alone might be Sovereign? In all things, the Son glorifies the Father and the Father glorified him. We cannot imagine that they would ever be contrary to one another. For what my opinion is worth, if God can do that with one of his children, he can do it with all those who follow Jesus. Therein is the "abomination" that is contained in the creeds--that God's nature is obscured and prevents mankind from learning its true potential in God's purposes. The heavens are filled with more infinite light and glory that we can possibly imagine from an entire race of glorified, exalted beings, who call God their Father.

It's true that the first drink starts the process, but it's not really accurate to suggest that the instant the first alcohol molecule hits the bloodstream that person is no longer able to have a coherent thought. (I know that's not what you mean to say, but it comes across that way a little.) I think what Gator is trying to do is take the reasonable middle ground that acknowledges that while we as LDS agree that alcohol should be avoided entirely, it's also disingenuous to suggest that a person can't possibly handle a couple of drinks in a reasonably responsible way. I'd also like to echo the sentiment that it's a tragedy what happened to your grandmother, and I too am disappointed to know that the drunk driver only got 6 months' probation. I'm sorry for your loss, brother.

Postum Why has no one mentioned Postum. Postum is back on the market, you know, and was always a big seller in Utah. Which is probably where you will find most of it today. Someone in Gospel Doctrine mentioned Postum. Quite a few didn't know what it was. I used to see it advertised on tv all the time when I was a kid. I believe my grandmother drank it for a while. Then she went to Sanka. I believe Sanka is decaf, but Postum, as you should all remember was a grain or wheat beverage. Some people in Gospel Doctrine and Priesthood were saying that Postum would be immoral. As it still gives the appearance of violating the wow. dc

I'm no expert on the church fathers, but I'm sure you are aware that we find many Bible passages that lead us to believe that only God was/is/will be the ultimate deity. Discussion to the contrary will lead us all over the place (discussions of pre-mortality, the nature of "substance," the Trinity vs. the LDS Godhead, etc. etc.). Suffice to say, our belief that we were created in-time, with a definite start point probably hinders our imagining the possibility of joining in God's nature. After all, if we did have a beginning, we're eternally behind, aren't we?

I respect that, and it makes sense. I'm a bit jaded when it comes to funeral expenses. An average funeral is between $6,000 and $10,000... The cost of a decent car. They can get away with this because funeral costs are usually covered by insurance or the estate, so the family doesn't have to come out of pocket for it and therefore don't really think about it too hard. Dying is big business.

Awesome! Health benefits means it can't be bad And this one had morphine: Source

D&C 89:2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days. This is a "current" requirement for temple worthiness I said it in the other thread and I will say it again, the WoW as we practice it is a matter of policy (for the general body of the church) and covenant made by members who enter the temple.

I'll admit, my picket sign "Booze iz fo Fooze" has cobwebs on it, time to get it out and use it more often. Ah, the new slogan for delicious "Turd Cakes". Sure, it is all made from turds but there is a super healthy vitamin pack in the middle. Just having a little fun

I disagree, Carbie. I think Maureen just stated her opinion and got a lot of flak for it. dc

No, the rebar is ten feet long and stationary. Or if it's a shorter piece, the parent is holding the other end and leading.

The problem with studies like that is people read them and conclude that the alcohol itself is the component of the beverages that provides the benefits. This has been shown to be false, per the grape juice comment above. That really makes the rest of the argument moot. If it were the alcohol, then one would expect *any* alcoholic beverage to demonstrate some of the same properties. And even if they DID, what's the point? That we know better than Heavenly Father? Is that the point being made here? And if you don't believe in the Word of Wisdom as a commandment from God, then what's the point arguing it here? Validation? Bragging rights? "I'm such an awesome forum debater that I convinced a few Mormons that drinking wine ain't so bad. Go me!"

At least in our area, unfortunately, there is almost zero talk about food storage or preparedness from any local level. If a new family joins the church in our area, they might not ever hear about food storage for several years at this rate. If the GA's have stopped talking because the older members have heard it enough, where does that leave all the new converts and younger rising generations? The moment the area cannery closed to the public, our whole area went silent. Was that about 4 years or so ago...losing track now?

PC, have you seen the official LDS.org article about becoming like God? https://www.lds.org/topics/becoming-like-god?lang=eng (I'm guessing you've seen before, but just in case you haven't).

When you have children, remember that a $2 piece of rebar and a blindfold can lead to a great object lesson on holding onto the iron rod.

I said you implied it. I've mentioned several times on this thread my point, but maybe one more time won't hurt. To believe that all alcohol consumption is not healthy or is evil is in my opinion silly and not factual. I have been arguing that moderate alcohol consumption is not the same as alcohol abuse. It is possible to be disciplined and drink moderately. There are a few on this thread who do not agree and that's fine but I see nothing wrong in sharing my opinion and knowledge on this subject. M.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=38814295&nid=148 So Utah seems to be considering a law punishing parents if their child has so many truancies. I'm still trying to put together my thoughts on the matter in regards to a specific yay or nay. But my philosophy according to me. I teach 2nd grade at a public charter school. Last week, the office handed us the letters for students who are past, at, or approaching the maximum tardy/absent limit, and it was over half my class. Some of these students were totally understandable in their situations of how things were that year where I wouldn't cast a thought of worry on their education well-being and general attendance. Others... well, they already have a lot going on besides. I have also had three students leave this year because their families decided that the position of transporting said students to our school (we have no transportation system) was not meshing with the family's schedule and other needs in comparison to other educational options. Sad to see a student go, but I get it and I also appreciate it: If you're selecting a charter school, you need to make sure you're willing and able to work with policy. I would apply this same philosophy to any other educational choice. You made this choice for your child and family, you must be willing to own up to it. In my charter school that has a lottery entrance system, don't hog a spot that you're not going to use. In reading and hearing about the debate concerning the aforementioned bill, I get the parent choice thing and I agree: parents should be in charge of the education of their children and no the school should not be running these students' and families' lives. But parents also know, or have the ability to find out, the nature of what is required by a public school. Thus a choice remains if a parent chooses to use the public school to educate their offspring: accept the terms or seek to have them changed. If nothing is satisfactory, the parent should then select an alternative means of education. If a parents says "I don't have to send my kid to school!", well, that's true, at least in my philosophy. But as a teacher that makes it incredibly hard for me to teach your child. When you choose to not send your kid to my classroom, you cannot later come to me and blame me for any educational failures concerning your child. You removed me from the equation. I suppose I'm asking for knowledge and acceptance of what a parent is getting into as far as a school is concerned. Don't choose an educational system and plan on ignoring the responsibilities involved. Now, I'm an advocate for educational choice. I plan to homeschool my girls circumstances allowing. I would love to see less focus on public school and perhaps just a nice gentleman (or lady for PC's sake) in a state office advocating for a child's need for an education just checking to make sure crazy parents aren't locking up their kids in closets denying them some source of education. But a cafeteria plan attitude of people saying they want the convenience of the neighborhood school but don't want to abide by policies yet still want their kids magically educated? Bad plan. As far as punishing parents: well, there is a big difference between the first grader whose parents are too lazy to take the kid to school and the high schooler who sluffs.

Or this http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/truth-wont-admit-drinking-healthy-87891 Point is you can find a study to back whatever it is you want to say about drinking

Simple. The researcher didn't have an agenda to demonize the use of alcohol. Read for yourself. "The study, conducted by UCLA epidemiologist James E. Enstrom, tracked the mortality rates and health practices of nearly 10,000 California high priests and their wives for 14 years. As a follow-up to research Enstrom published in 1989, the study confirms that the healthiest active Mormons have a life expectancy that is eight to 11 years longer than the general white population in the United States."

I _love_ Postum. I may be keeping them in business single-handedly. But I don't think it's going to help you stay awake. Appearance, schmearance. I think you should buy that guy a Postum mug (available at Postum.com).

That rocks, congrats again! My wife was a convert of about 2 years before we got married, so our early years had a lot of Gospel Principles (basic, fundamental) discussions. Our early years were highly informal FHEs. In fact it felt a lot more like date night with an appetizer of the gospel. Later in life with kids now, it is more formal: song, prayer, review of the week events, etc. Some ideas: 1. BYU TV or Mormon Channel show. Then discuss something about the gospel you saw/learned. 2. Join up with another couple for FHE, makes it a little more formal. 3. Go to the church: Go play basketball or do service (clean the kitchen or foyers there) Probably need to borrow a church key, but hey, the building is a ghost town on Mondays. 4. Write down your experience at the temple being sealed. Write everything you can remember, felt, words by officiator, etc. before you forget them. 5. Go to a place with other Rockin members of the church and join in a discussion with questions/topics... psst, I now a place in particular... you are here now! 6. Invite a senior couple over from the ward. Senior couples are wonderful resources of knowledge and fun. You ask young married couples things/questions, well they are still trying to figure things out themselves. Invite a senior couple over and they have figured things out most of the time and have solid answers instead. 7. Nature hikes, hold hands and count your many blessings. 8. Sunday before, check out some videos from the church library. Watch some. 9. Go through "Gospel Principles" manual and try to teach each other parts. Teaching someone else reinforces what you have learned. 10. Go on splits with the missionaries. 11. Service, service and more service. 12. Skype a family member you haven't talked to in a while, saw hi and let them know about your beautiful sealing. 13. Write the parents of the missionaries who taught you the gospel and say thanks for sending their children out. 14. Try a new food and cook together. Simple Foods to Try thread so on and so on... Have fun, enjoy each other. Yahooooo!

Congratulations! The Family Home Evening manual may have ideas that you could make work without kids. Here are random ideas off the top of my head: 1) Start now to build a collection of lessons for when you have kids. (You may be too busy once they arrive...) 2) Play games (if you like playing games). We played games in my family and I miss it (and it's not about the games, it's just about spending time together). 3) Spend time learning each other's hobbies - even if you don't like them - but with no contest or judgement, or expectation of continuing participation, just with the intent of appreciating each other's interests. For example, maybe he likes some video game, so you play it with him (whether you want to or not), let him teach you how, and the things he enjoys about it, he has to understand that this round of play isn't about winning, it's about sharing. Then another week, maybe you like scrapbooking, or something artistic or crafty, and you teach him what you do, why, how, what you like about it, what you don't like - again, it's not about getting it right, it's about sharing. 4) Have the difficult conversations. Maybe this is too serious for FHE, but all too often I hear about couples having troubles later because they never talked about serious stuff early on - and if you're going to have serious conversations, starting them off with a prayer and an opening hymn sounds like a good idea to me. 5) You could study the scriptures together. Maybe write your thoughts in a journal for your future children. Or maybe any thoughts for them, not just about scriptures - random things that they can read before you die (as opposed to normal journals). 6) Do some genealogy. At the very least, get yourselves and your parents in familysearch.org, but I'll bet you could do a lot more - it's much easier with FamilySearch than it was in the days of paper and microfiche... 7) Whatever it is that you guys think is fun and will help you be happy as a couple and a family. Mix it up - do fun stuff, spiritual stuff, family stuff, project stuff, etc. Variety can keep it interesting - it doesn't have to rigidly follow a pre-defined outline. FWIW.

We are about 2-3 hours from a few temples, depending which way you go. We live in the St. Louis temple district, but as it was closed for cleaning we decided to go to Kansas City. It was very special, and a very happy occasion.

I was thinking of coming into the debate on your side... Not to extol the virtues of alcohol but because I felt some of my fellow LDS were being a bit harsh toward your comments... But that last sentence struck me as being needlessly snarky. The LDS Church promotes free will better than any other denomination I'm aware of. Nobody gets excommunicated for drinking alcohol or smoking. True, a member who doesn't observe the Word of Wisdom won't be attending the Temple, but that doesn't constitute depriving people of freewill. To argue that having these restrictions is a clamp on free will is like saying Catholics and Protestants don't posses free will because the church forbids adultery.

I wrote a book several years ago titled, "Building the Ark: Preparing Today to Live in the United Order." I was interested in a quote I read by Pres. Lorenzo Snow, who said that living in that inspired economic system would be as necessary to our survival one day as the Ark was for Noah and his family. As I did research on that book, I found a lot of information about food storage and preparedness. It made me think of food storage differently. Consider that Noah and his family spent slightly over a year on the ark--they had to have a year's supply of food, not only for themselves, but the animals, too. Regardless of however literal of figurative the Ark story is, there is a clear message that obedience to principles of temporal salvation helped Noah survive and deliver his family into a new dispensation. In our family, the first time we had our "year's supply" of food, we built it up gradually using the "pantry" concept. Like our great-grandparents had done, we set up a pantry and, when we went to the store, we stocked it up over time. After a while, we ate what we stored and restocked the pantry when we shopped. Adding just a little extra each time, we had a nice reserve built up with very little effort. We ordered some wheat from the storehouse, learned how to grind it and use it. Additionally, we learned how to garden and cultivate fruit trees. In short, we learned to live like regular people did almost a century ago. If there was a crisis of some kind, like a hurricane, loss of a job, or a civil emergency, we were prepared. It gave us a lot of peace. Some time later, we relocated to a different state for a job change. We knew we'd be living in an apartment and we wouldn't have room for everything. We gave away most of what we had and downsized to a smaller pantry. A few years later, we bought a new home and now we're building up the pantry again. We are on track to have most of of a year's worth of staple items by year's end. This mode of having a year's supply doesn't make you feel like you're preparing for the end of the world. It's just a provident way of living so you can be secure when life's challenges pop up from time to time. If you're prepared, you don't fear (as much). Instead of preparing for the end of the world, I think the Lord wants us to live in a way that will help us have as much security and peace as possible.

I would definitely agree with you that’s there’s been a great de-emphasis on food storage. However, the greater principle of food storage is preparedness and stewardship over our Earthly things. That principle has NOT been abandoned at all, is anything it’s talked about more- in the form of money management, avoiding debt, living within our means, having a savings fund, etc. Why the switch in focus? It's what's needed.

I agree with your observation and with your wondering question. I also wonder if our failure as a people to get our houses in order might have something to do with it.

I've seen that happen. My ex (who was the one who introduced me to the Church) decided to stop living the LDS life and now not only drinks alcohol, but she does it in front of our kids and flaunts it. She even pledged to take our kids out for their first drink when they turned 21. Well, fortunately our oldest is now 23 and has yet to let a single drop of alcohol pass his lips, in defiance of his mother. Our next oldest turns 21 this Summer so hopefully he'll also refuse.

Gluttony, I would agree, is a sin... But to assume that being obese = sinful because only gluttons become obese is intellectually lazy.

Always fun to be judged by people who haven't been there. (I'm assuming that because I find it hard to imagine someone going through the struggles associated with obesity and then saying something like this.)