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Corrections: You've listed an AVERAGE rental rate. But if you're poor, you don't get an average apartment. You get a poor apartment. That's how things work. If you don't do this, you're valuing comfort over wise financial planning. And, NO, this does NOT = crime ridden apartment. I've lived in dirt cheap apartments that were not in crime ridden areas. I currently have a high income, so I live very comfortably ... on about $1200/month on groceries for a family of 9. This includes things like cleaning supplies, toiletries, etc. The regular thing you'd get from a grocery store. But the "average" family buys pre-prepared foods all the time which have serving sizes that are too small and cost an arm and a leg. They drink soda all the time. This is why the "average" family budget is so high. There's no secret here. You just need to realize that when you're poor, you have to sacrifice some things. and if you get soda, it will be a special occasion. We also bargain shop. So, we're nowhere NEAR the average for our family size. But this is exactly what a poor family SHOULD be doing. Utilities: OK. But some utilities are paid by the apartment complex. So, some deduction there. Retirement: Sounds good. After deductions and tax credits, federal taxes would be a negative number (i.e. you'd get cash back). I saw your correction. And that is also wrong. You'd get a total cash back for the lower income. And if you include FICA, you'd get about about a 1% total tax bill for the higher income, but still a net credit for the lower income. State taxes vary. But where I've lived (CA,UT, CO, AZ, LA) the tax bill would have been less than $200/yr. Texas has no state income tax. After all is said and done, I'd either get a credit or I paid virtually zero taxes. I've gone to the grocery store and found apartments in the area, etc. I've done some shopping. Income is based on the starting salary of an Amazon delivery driver. This is also the starting salary of a regular store employee at Walmar or ALDI (a nationwide grocery chain). Rent for a small, but decent 2 bd apt in this non-crime ridden area. Groceries were a proportion of my current grocery expenditure (which is pretty nice, actually). Based on what utilities are included in an apartment's rental agreement vs ones you'd have to pay yourself. Retirement is std 6%. Misc expenses were a proportion of what I spend on my "necessary" items throughout the year. Car, insurance, repairs on the house, etc. While many of these may not be an expense for someone who is poor, it was only fair to add "something" into this list to catch miscellaneous items. Taxes were actually calculated. After all deductions and child tax credits (assuming married filing jointly + 1 child). 8% FICA. These are not theoretical or statistical. These are REAL numbers based on how I budgeted when I made very little income. That's how I lived. Again, you've basically proven the point that the primary reason people cry "financial need" is because they want comfort and luxury rather than inability to make it work. Are there people with REAL financial issues? Sure. No argument there. But here is my real world experience: I've often been asked to work with the poor households in many of the ward's I've been in (there is a reason for that). It is amazing what I find. REAL EXAMPLES... A family that is broke, "no income", living in a trailer, a shed, and a small home (three structures, extended family) on some tiny piece of land in a poor area (but not a high crime area): This is a family in my current ward. They get more than $50,000/yr on total government and charitable assistance. They also get allowances for the children to spend on jewelry, candy, toys... One son bought enough parts to build himself a motorized bicycle. They get all their medical need "paid for", but they do have many restrictions on what services they get. The government system is so screwed up that what they do pay for and what they don't pay for is just whacked out. They get constant food orders for the Bishop's Storehouse. They get WIC and go to food banks. They get government paid cell phones (I couldn't find out if they were issued by govt or not) for every member of the family. They have three dogs that they really don't take care of or play with. But they have to feed them. A family that is broke, "no income", living in a small home (3 bd, 2 ba, 1200 sq ft) a poor area (but not a high crime area): This was a family back a few wards. They got more than $35,000/yr on total government and charitable assistance. This was back in 2000. So, that was LOT OF money for a poor person back then. I remember remarking that this was more than I made as an engineer. They got government paid cell phones. They had no problems medically. Neighbors would just walk into their home and pick up food from their fridge and cupboards like they'd always done that. And they had. Food that magically appears, magically disappears just as easily and with just as much emotion. They had several cats. Impossible to count when they kept going in and out of the house. They asked for church assistance and the bishop asked me to meet with them to assess their needs. When they found out that they weren't going to get any cash from us (only storehouse orders) they up and moved to the neighboring stake where my in-laws lived. And they gave the same sob story to them. My in-laws were amazed at how quickly they made "friends" who would, again, come to their house and take their food without any threats, or any permissions. It didn't belong to anyone, so why not? That said, I have come across families who really DO have financial needs. And we help them. I've generally found three kinds: Those who simply need some help with budgeting and training: These tend to get out of poverty fairly quickly. Those who simply can't get out of the victim mindset and will not accept training for a better job. Won't fill out job applications that they're fully qualified for. Won't go to job interviews. Won't learn to budget. Won't sacrifice that smoothie each morning (about $1000 to $2000 each year). Won't sacrifice. They never get out. Generational welfare cases. I've only been able to help one person get out of this cycle. That was a daughter who was simply differen than all the others I've worked with. I sometimes wondered if she was a milkman baby. She simply didn't buy into the mindset of the rest of the family. When she became an adult, she got a job, saved up for college and had a great life for as long as I knew her. How often have you actually gotten in the trenches and worked with poor people to help them get out of poverty? Can you share some experiences?

Thread is now closed. We're going back to no political discussion until further notice.

Like the COVID-19 struggle there is antidotal evidence that surfaces from time to time and distracts from the core problems and possible solutions. We have spent almost an entire year taking many "wrong" steps and not learning much from it. I grew up in a wealthy family with a father that believed poverty produced better citizens than riches - so I was raised thinking I had to work to help support our "poor" family. When I became an adult I discovered the wealth of my family. My father owned millions in real estate. I learned that investing in real estate is a matter of recognizing long term trends. Evolution is a natural course of everything - everything changes. The wisdom of life is recognizing the trends of change. I have observed a trend of violence in our society. This is not new but has always been a trend of those seeking power over others. As a parent we can see violence take hold in children and quickly get out of hand. It is common among children to gaslight violence - that is to blame the victims of our individual violence for the violence we inflict upon them. It begins by blaming our anger on those we are angry with. In a society of trending and escalating violence it is easy to find antidotal evidence to blame as initiating the violence. But lets be honest. It was not a Trump supporter that went to a event of democratic party members preparing for a softball game and opened up with violent gun fire. It was a support of the democratic party. In recent years there have been riots - burning down and destroying of struggling small business. This has not been at the hands of supporters of "conservative" ideals. This is not to deny that conservatives have not been involved in demonstrations but whenever there has been violence there have been supporters of the democratic party. Perhaps antidotal evidence of a rogue conservative can be pointed to - but lets us be clear the trend among democratic supports is violence. It is not hard to see which political party encourages and support violence. The sad thing about violence is that it does work. It is easer to force others to conform to an ideal and get quicker results with violence. But the problem is that as violence becomes a way or the way of establishing what anyone thinks is justice - the result is less justice. The most unjust way to solve social problems is war. No one wins with violence and war. But eventually those that loose a war will suffer the greatest loses. I am of the mind that the violence in our society will eventually bring about civil war. Regardless of the outcome - our country (and justice) will be lost and the only possible good will be if some can find a way to a way to rebuild a society with justice without violence. If there is voter fraud - and I know there is. We must unite as a people to end it or our freedoms and liberties will be lost. Voter fraud is not new - it is not new to the world and it is not new to the USA. But the trend is towards increases in greater wide spread fraud. I am sad and disappointed that the Supreme Court did not provide a forum to address voter fraud. It would have been better to lay it all out and say what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in an election in this country. Ignoring concerns or dismissing them without legal consideration will tear a society apart. If this country is to become united we must communicate and address concerns - not to argue but to find solutions - and the possibility of solutions is fading - especially in light of violence and destruction of property (including statues in public places). Voter fraud should not be a concern of an individual party - it should be the concern of every citizen devoted to justice, liberty and freedom. It is my personal opinion that anyone caught and convicted of voter fraud should never be allowed to hold any public office or trust and should never be allowed to ever vote again in any election process. And I believe voter fraud starts with the misuse of campaign funds - both in raising and distributing of campaign funds. We think of voting as a right - but the reality it is the privilege of a people attempting to preserve freedoms and liberties all citizens of a society. The Traveler

Some of these are fair criticisms. Adjusting the federal numbers up to 3700 per month and reducing the taxes to 5% (about 11% to federal and 4% to state/local) changes the monthly unused income to $489 per month. That $30,000 downpayment becomes accessible in just over five years. But with the caveat that transportation still isn't included in that value. And the caveat that the home price is still the typical value in the area I live in, which a fairly low cost of living area. The urban area 30 minutes north of me shows 2BR/1Bath houses starting around the $125k point. By comparison, this (admittedly cherry picked) 2BR 1.5 Bath in the Salt Lake area going into foreclosure and marked as for sale is listed at $280k. Sidenote, regarding some other criticisms of using a 3BR house in my targets, I figured a young couple starting out and planning for their future might be interested in a 3BR house if they wanted to have four kids, which doesn't seem unreasonable for a mormon family. I apologize that this assumption wasn't expressly stated in my work. As another form of comparison, this Census report shows the 1970 median household income was $8,730 per year. This inflation calculator places that value at 59,506.2 in today's dollars. I'm struggling to find an individual income median for a direct comparison, but if we operate on the belief that single income families were more common in the upper income levels then than they are now, my gut check guess is that a single income family probably has the equivalent of $600 less monthly income now than it did in 1970. Which all goes back to the original point, that regardless of which numbers you use, a single income has less purchasing power today than it did 50 years ago. By extension, making ends meet and accomplishing financial goals is harder on a single income today than it was 50 years ago. It seems reasonable to think that families might be making different decisions with regard to who works and who doesn't that reflect some of that lost purchasing power. Things not relevant to the main point: - A 20% down payment may not be normal, but I'd argue that is another symptom of the problem. Best practice by financial experts, as far as I understand, still encourage the 20% down payment because it saves money due to PMI. More importantly, it demonstrates the ability to save money for the unexpected expenses that comes with the maintenance on a house. Statistically speaking, the lower percentage the downpayment, the higher the risk of failing to keep up with payments. (another really complicated discussion, I know) - Not saving for retirement while saving to purchase a house is, in my estimation, a catastrophic strategic error. If your employer offers a match, you should contribute at least enough to max out that benefit. Early savings are king in retirement, and starting five to six years earlier makes an enormous difference after 30 years of saving. So whether or not it is common, it's the practice that should be encouraged.

Just because I know that people are frequently judgmental and unnecessary making calls about things they know little about, doesn't mean I have to like it or say something about it. I've seen this come up WAY to many time. Just one example off the top of my head: I've a good friend who's a devout LDS Christian and great mom. Her husband doesn't make much money, but they've alway felt it was important to have a parent home full time, so they made it work, literally counting every penny. Once all 4 kids were in school full time, my friend elected to take a teaching job at her kid's elementary school so that they could have a little extra money to save for mission funds/college/retirement, etc. This was an extremely prayerful and thought out decision for the entire family. After completing all of her teaching certifications & got hired, my friend excitedly told her ministering sister about the updates. To which her ministering sister instantly condemned her with "Women being out of the home is an invitation for Satan to come in". *WHAM* Now, do you think that my friend EVER shared anything with that sister again or trusted her in any way? No, the bridge was permanently burnt because this sister didn't care about the person/family and just judged where she had no dominion. These stories are not "those faceless crazy liberals" or anything like that. They are individuals and families, making calls on details only they know. Let us not judge them where we have no dominion.

Yup. Both my Father and Mother grew up in households with 8 and 9 people in the house. Each home had only 3 bedrooms. Everyone slept with their siblings. Each home had only 1 bathroom. In my last ward our Bishop had 5 kids...and they lived in a 3 bedroom home with only a minivan for transport. He took the bus or walked 2.5 miles to work every day. I am 34 years old with a stay at home wife and 4 kids at home, and my family is surviving on my modest income alone. Our 4 kids share rooms, our home is small, our vehicles are used, and our vacations consist of going camping. We do not spend our money frivolously. We make a budget and stick to it. There is no "standard of living" outside of what we choose the standard to be. We do not have to move our measuring stick to fit the world's ideals. Numbers and charts can be doctored to fit any narrative. The fact remains that people need to stop expecting to live beyond their means; that certain goods are required in today's society...because they aren't. Cuts should be made before a wife has to leave the home to work...she should only do so if truly necessary, as rearing her children always takes priority. Counsel from a man who became a prophet of God is below...yet there will always be those who continue to kick against the pricks..."what he said certainty doesn't apply to me...I am the exception". I would certainly work overtime if need be before I had my wife go to work and leave the children with someone else. "It is a human tendency to want the things which will give us prominence and prestige. We live in a time when borrowing is easy. We can purchase almost anything we could ever want just by using a credit card or obtaining a loan. …The day of reckoning will come if we have continually lived beyond our means. My brothers and sisters, avoid the philosophy that yesterday’s luxuries have become today’s necessities. They aren’t necessities unless we make them so. …I urge you to live within your means. One cannot spend more than one earns and remain solvent. I promise you that you will then be happier than you would be if you were constantly worrying about how to make the next payment on nonessential debt." Thomas S. Monson, Apr 2006 General Conference

There is so much here. It can be overwhelming. Lately, I have read some Christian dystopian future fiction. They tend to depict calamity that can be political (upheaval, civil war with a small-c, etc.), economic (fiat money exposed as worthless), or technological (EM pulse, etc.). There's always a survivalist Christian who was smart enough to see it coming, and he runs a safe haven until criminal elements (or the U.N.) come and try to fix them. The problem is that the heroes almost always end up doing some rather harsh actions in the name of saving their righteous peers from bad guys. Sometimes the Left Behind heroes were guilty of that, as well. Personally, Rapture-believer that I am, I suspect that things will settle down, go back to the immoral equilibrium, and that most will be lulled back into complacency. Then, at a time and hour when people do not expect, the LORD will return. In the mean time, we share faith, be good neighbors, and pray for our leaders (and pay tax).

My nephew (Kale) is living with us right now until he gets married in March. He has been staying in our guest room which has needed a new mattress. We finally got one yesterday. My son was on his computer and I walk past him dragging the old mattress out of the room and the house. He has a puzzled look on his face and asks what I am doing. I respond, "Kale has pissed me off, so he can sleep on the box springs." I keep dragging the mattress past him. I wish I could describe the look on my son's face!

Work Humor: My manager walks over to me and asks if he could speak with me because he wanted to show me something. I followed him to his work station and he pulled up a communication I had with another employee. I looked at the communication and mentioned, Oh ya, that is the communication where I asked the other employee a question and when I didn't receive a response I used the hand notification with the finger pointing to the question hoping for a response. My manager tells me to look closer at the hand notification. I looked closer at the emoticon and I finally saw what he was asking about. The finger was indeed pointing up, except the finger was the middle finger rather than the index finger. Yep, my fellow employee received the "birdie" from me! Dang! So, I quickly found the other employee, apologized, and thankfully she understood and was forgiving. The Moral of this Story: When using emoticons with fingers what is the most important detail: location, location, location.

Too classy?

I’m sure @NeuroTypical will tell you where it is if he ever finds it

Where is the rest of this one? It's usually followed up with something.