Empathy

[The Folk Prophet]

To discuss:

Our 5th Sunday lesson yesterday was on mental health. One thought that kept coming up in the lesson was the importance of empathy, and how most of us don't actually have empathy, but only sympathy (like this was a bad thing), and that true empathy requires something more, really getting into some (I can't remember the phrasing) depth of something. And I couldn't help but think to myself: 

A. I'm not sure it's possible. How can I possibly relate to something I've never experienced? B. I'm not sure it's important. Why do I have to be able to relate to something to show compassion and love for the person experiencing it?

Edited July 31, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Jane_Doe]

When I was going through mental health problems, there were many people who were sympathetic but not empathetic.  I do not fault them for this- being empathetic when you've not personally be there is extremely difficult.  And at points it was refreshing to have a person admit that they totally didn't understand what I was going through, but were there if I needed someone to cry on or something else.  The worse was when someone said "I know what you're going through..." when it was very obvious they had no clue-- this is common in cases of clinical depression when people incorrectly think it's the same thing as just being sad.  

I don't think your question here is about "how to be empathetic", so I won't talk about that.

As to "how to be the best sympathatic person you can be":

1) Be honest with yourself when you really have no personal idea it's like to go through that.

2) Don't judge a person who is going through that.

3) Be there.  You don't have to understand what's going on to understand this person is sad: hold them.  You don't have to understand what's going on to understand this person is upset: let them talk.  You don't have to fix a problem to love them: just love them. 

[NeuroTypical]

You can show compassion.  You can have sympathy.  You can have empathy.  All of these are things, and there is some overlap.

To the best of my understanding, empathy is getting a lot of attention these days because (not to put too fine a point on it) chicks dig it.  They like to connect with their significant others in meaningful ways, and having a loved one feel with them is a pretty dang fulfilling way of having that happen.  It's a heck of a lot better than having someone feel sorry for you.

I think this video crystallized the concept pretty well: Behold the empathy bear!

 

[zil]

IMO, those who find fault (and they exist) with people who don't experience empathy, ought to have a bit of empathy...

A) I think only through revelation / the Holy Ghost can you relate (or at least know what to do).  (And that's a lot easier said than done.)

B) I'm not sure it's important either, or at least not as important as some people make it out to be.  Not everyone receives the same gifts (at the same time or rate).  @Jane_Doe's list of things to do seems like something anyone could manage.

Regarding NT's video: Really, sympathy drives disconnection?  I think she totally re-defined sympathy, and falsely.  She did the world a disservice there.  She could have just talked about the right and wrong ways to show sympathy or compassion instead of making a "sympathy" strawman.  Meanwhile, I'm clearly headed for Perdition. <sigh>

[Jane_Doe]

Also: someone can honestly understand what you are going through, but still be a un-sympathic uncaring jerk.

[Fether]

On a similar note:

The root comp- means to be with. Catholics often call the atonement the passion. So when we are feeling compassion for others, we are essentially going through a sort of atonement with their particular trial.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Fether

[NeuroTypical]

Honestly, it's nice to hear some critical comments of the bear empathy video.  Folks in my circles have so widely ballyhooed it for years, and I thought it sort of demonized sympathy too. 

I do think it does a good job of defining empathy and why it's cool, though.

[zil]

Just now, NeuroTypical said:

I do think it does a good job of defining empathy and why it's cool, though.

I think it does a good job of showing how to help someone who is struggling.  I'm not convinced what she showed represents "empathy".  I think it could just as easily represent "sympathy" and "compassion".  Or it could simply be "how to support someone who is struggling".  Empathy (by the dictionary) requires you to feel what the other person is feeling - I'm not convinced that's ever possible, I'm 100% convinced it's not always possible, and I'm pretty sure it's not possible for mortal A's feelings to 100% match mortal B's feelings ever, regardless of the similarity of their lives.  (But this is coming from the jerk headed for perdition, so what do I know?)

Where's Counselor Troi when we need her?

[NeuroTypical]

She was killed by a Borg sympathy attack.

[eddified]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

 You don't have to fix a problem to love them: just love them. 

So true. Usually, people don't want you to fix their problems, they only want you to love them, listen to them, try to understand them. 

[anatess2]

12 minutes ago, eddified said:

So true. Usually, people don't want you to fix their problems, they only want you to love them, listen to them, try to understand them. 

The problem always comes because people also want you to believe they are right.  And if you don't, then you must not have listened nor understood them.

My husband is the perfect example of <whatever word it is we want to use for this>.  He says this a lot - I don't understand you, I think it's stupid and wrong, but go ahead and knock yourself out.  I'm not going anywhere.

If he thinks it's stupid or wrong, then I'm doing it on my own.  And sure enough, whether I succeed or fail, he's right there.  And yeah, he has no problem saying, Whoa, great job! or See, I told you so! at the end.  But, it doesn't matter, because when I wake up every morning, as sure as the sun shines every morning, he's still there.

Edited July 31, 2017 by anatess2

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Honestly, it's nice to hear some critical comments of the bear empathy video.  Folks in my circles have so widely ballyhooed it for years, and I thought it sort of demonized sympathy too. 

I do think it does a good job of defining empathy and why it's cool, though.

A couple more thoughts on this:

1). Sometimes "empathy" just isn't going to be possible, because one's own experiences won't be anywhere near the same ballpark.

2). Sometimes the person under the cloud doesn't actually *want* empathy or "connection", because--

a). They may want to use the "disconnect" as a means of guilting you into a particular course of action (see, e.g., the gay rights lobby), or

b). They may just be telling you about the problem because they think you might have an idea on how to fix it or a perspective that won't make the problem seem so bad (in other words--they might be a guy).

(@zil, make room down there in Perdition for me, will you?)

Edited July 31, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[zil]

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

(@zil, make room down there in Perdition for me, will you?)

Yeah, sure, fine.  Just don't get too close.

[person0]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not sure it's possible. How can I possibly relate to something I've never experienced?

It is possible, but for most of us, only by manifestation of the Holy Spirit:

Quote

Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth. . . (Alma 7:13)

Christ suffered all our pains and afflictions despite the fact that He could have learned to succor us perfectly through the Holy Spirit.  We are not called to suffer to the same extent, but we can still be instructed by the Spirit in order to comfort those who stand in need of comfort.

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not sure it's important. Why do I have to be able to relate to something to show compassion and love for the person experiencing it?

Showing compassion probably wouldn't require that, but truly understanding and empathizing with the person at a deep level would.  Is it necessary?  No.  Is it a way to be more loving, Christ seemed to think so.

Quote

. . . he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.  (Alma 7:12)

Sympathy is feeling the compassion for the individuals suffering, often in terms of moving you to action (i.e. donation cause their house burned down, "I'm so sorry that happened", etc).  Empathy is putting yourself in their shoes and understanding their experience and emotions at a deeper level.  Which one actually results in you feeling more love and experiencing more growth?  Perhaps an appropriate combination?  I would assume that Christ has perfect empathy, but exercises sympathy only as deemed appropriate (such as staying to bless the Nephite children, etc).  We can get the 'big hug' from Him and feel and know He understands what we are going through, but He's not frequently giving us a handout to 'fix' our problem, yet that big loving hug is often more valuable in our mortal sojourn.  Otherwise, He might potentially mess with agency, experience, and the purposes of our mortal experience.

Sadly, many people actually just want a handout, they want people's sympathy and not their empathy.  This has in part led to the current entitlement culture of many populations within the US.  This improper form of sympathy is the basis for many of the racist and/or ineffective entitlement laws on the books.  Empathy will lead to helping someone help themselves, akin to teaching them to fish.  Sympathy will more often lead to helping someone temporarily, akin to giving them a fish.  There is a time and place for both, but most of the time empathy is the better route.

Edited July 31, 2017 by person0

[NeuroTypical]

24 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

A couple more thoughts on this:
1). Sometimes "empathy" just isn't going to be possible, because one's own experiences won't be anywhere near the same ballpark.

Well, empathy is more about shared feelings than shared experiences.  Yeah, you don't know what it feels like to have a miscarriage.  But you do know what it felt like when someone close to you died.  

Decent attempt at empathy: "Oh wow - I don't have the faintest clue what that must be like.  The closest I can come, is when my dog died."

[Fether]

I think one of the reasons we hate the phrase "I know how you feel" is because no one ever really does. Two people with identical trials will experience them differently and feel differently.

I don't know that we will ever be able to understand what anyone is ever feeling perfectly, but we can come close. 

But I also don't think you need to know exactly how they feel to be a benefit to them in crisis.

[askandanswer]

4 hours ago, zil said:

Meanwhile, I'm clearly headed for Perdition. <sigh>

I think that's been pretty obvious to everyone who knows you for quite some time. What's really impressive is the speed at which you are getting there.

[seashmore]

"It's by understanding me that you've helped me," is probably my favorite/most used Willa Cather quote.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

To discuss:

Our 5th Sunday lesson yesterday was on mental health. One thought that kept coming up in the lesson was the importance of empathy, and how most of us don't actually have empathy, but only sympathy (like this was a bad thing), and that true empathy requires something more, really getting into some (I can't remember the phrasing) depth of something. And I couldn't help but think to myself: 

A. I'm not sure it's possible. How can I possibly relate to something I've never experienced? B. I'm not sure it's important. Why do I have to be able to relate to something to show compassion and love for the person experiencing it?

And ... You didn't bring this up to the class?

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

And ... You didn't bring this up to the class?

Didn't seem appropriate in the moment.

[CV75]

On 7/31/2017 at 9:49 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

To discuss:

Our 5th Sunday lesson yesterday was on mental health. One thought that kept coming up in the lesson was the importance of empathy, and how most of us don't actually have empathy, but only sympathy (like this was a bad thing), and that true empathy requires something more, really getting into some (I can't remember the phrasing) depth of something. And I couldn't help but think to myself: 

A. I'm not sure it's possible. How can I possibly relate to something I've never experienced? B. I'm not sure it's important. Why do I have to be able to relate to something to show compassion and love for the person experiencing it?

I think empathy only means you are understanding and sharing the feelings of another, to the best of your ability. At some level most adults have experienced a degree of all the feelings one can have, and the Spirit can enhance our understanding and sharing. Sometimes we have to pray for that empathy. This will invite the other person understand and feel better feelings, and the Spirit will also facilitate that.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Didn't seem appropriate in the moment.

Forgive me for making some assumptions about you. I was surprised to hear that.

[The Folk Prophet]

On 8/1/2017 at 1:15 PM, CV75 said:

I think empathy only means you are understanding and sharing the feelings of another, to the best of your ability. 

Well the best of my ability is pretty much nil when it comes to certain things. But as long as the best of my ability sets the standard...

[Bad Karma]

Empathy is a rare thing. I'm not ashamed to admit I am a Bat Crap Crazy PTSD jacked up crying out of the blue, jumpy, terrified red hot mess that when I am done taking all my pills, I've had a full meal. But when I have to talk to head shrinkers or family, it's often an experience in speaking to someone who not only doesn't speak my language, my body language, facial expressions, everything, is alien to them. I think empathy is a skill rarely mastered, I think of sweet souls the likes of Robin Williams, who's passing still brings me to tears was a master at empathy. I don't know why that is where I went with this.

[CV75]

12 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Well the best of my ability is pretty much nil when it comes to certain things. But as long as the best of my ability sets the standard...

Empathy can also be developed. There are lots of management and self-improvement resources / courses available. It starts with learning the behaviors, which over time get associated and integrated with the attendant emotions.