3rd hour meeting on fostering love with members of the LGBTQ community

[JohnsonJones]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Something to remember @changed: 

Maybe their sexuality has nothing to do with why they don't get along. I have a gay cousin who I haven't spoken to in ten years. I have another cousin who I think is closeted, and I haven't' spoken to him in about a decade either. At first, that sounds horrible. After all, shouldn't I be more accepting?

Here's the cool part: My college roommate was gay. So obviously, I don't have a problem with homosexuality. I dislike her because I think she's a drama queen.  The other one I never had a "falling out with"-we just have vastly different lives and nothing at all in common. So for all you know, maybe their personality conflicts don't come from their sexual preference. 

You grow up a lot when you realize that being a jerk/unlikable person doesn't stop at someones sexuality. You don't have to like everyone you meet who is a member of an oppressed class. 

This is true.  Just ask my students...I'm a jerk to everyone...especially when it comes to making tests and giving out grades!!!  They normally don't get past looking at their test scores to even see that I'm a real person behind the paperwork!!!

[Guest MormonGator]

8 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

This is true.  Just ask my students...I'm a jerk to everyone...especially when it comes to making tests and giving out grades!!!  They normally don't get past looking at their test scores to even see that I'm a real person behind the paperwork!!!

There's a great episode of Frasier (At least I think it's Frasier) when someone in a wheelchair tries to befriend the main character. They have absolutely nothing in common, and the main character tries to end the friendship. The guy says, "It's because I'm in a wheelchair right?" Not wanting to hurt their feelings, the character lies and say "Yes. Yes it is." 

Same kind of thing. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by MormonGator

[Anddenex]

29 minutes ago, changed said:

For others, no, it is NOT a choice.  It really is who they are - how they were born, how they have always been.  Everyone needs to understand this.  

I hate to state the obvious, but you don't know if it is "NOT" their choice. You don't know how they were born, and how they have always been, this is what everyone needs to truly understand.

It would be similar to saying "adultery" is "NOT" a choice.

[NeuroTypical]

24 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You grow up a lot when you realize that being an unlikable person doesn't stop at someones sexuality. You don't have to like everyone you meet who is a member of an oppressed class. 

Or, as my dad's bumper sticker said in the 1980's: "I'm not prejudiced, I hate everybody."

[Jane_Doe]

38 minutes ago, changed said:

Let's say someone you know has cancer - or some other physical condition - are in an extreme amount of pain.  Would you support them if they decided to start taking mediation for their pain?  Now the church says don't take drugs .... but if someone is passing out, unconscious, suicidal, screaming → if that is honestly where they are without the drugs, are you going to tell them not to take drugs??  Perhaps if you had also felt that level of pain, if you had also been suicidal etc. ... you might not hate them for choosing to do drugs.  

Been there.  Drugs aren't the answer.  Indulging ungodly urges aren't the answer.  Rather, the answer is getting real help and turning your life around.

I love everyone.  And I thank everyone that loved me back when I was in that storm, including those who told me I needed help and encouraged me to change.

[Guest MormonGator]

7 minutes ago, changed said:

I think we are supposed to love one another - everyone.  All of our neighbors. 

every

last

one

of

them.

God loves all of us.... right?

You sound like a very nice person, and that's admirable. It's also very naive an totally unrealistic . There is a difference between "Christian love of your neighbors" and "I am an idiot. This person can murder my family while I stand there and try to hug him."  That kind of thinking works for five year olds and internet types who don't understand Christianity and it's teachings. And for people like @Anddenex. (just playing dude). 

Edited February 7, 2018 by MormonGator

[Guest MormonGator]

14 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Or, as my dad's bumper sticker said in the 1980's: "I'm not prejudiced, I hate everybody."

Your dad was WC Fields?  

[NeuroTypical]

7 minutes ago, changed said:

I think we are supposed to love one another - everyone.  All of our neighbors. 

every

last

one

of

them.

God loves all of us.... right?

There are a lot of ways to convey emphasis to text.  One word per line, double spaced?  Ok, I guess I get you're adding emphasis.  Not sure if I like it better than bolding or all-caps or not, but I figure it's about about equally as useful.  The problem is, it comes across as smarmy, sarcastic, superior, condescending, maybe even contemptuous.  One person just can't for the life of them see why on earth someone isn't getting it, so they go out of their way to say it

plainly

and

slowly

so

even

a fifth grader

can

understand.

You can understand that, right?

Full, open disclosure - your abused pet video conveyed things very meaningfully on an emotional level.  I find myself in agreement with the point you were making in that post.  But after this post?  Well, I just want to return the sarcastic snark.

[mordorbund]

59 minutes ago, changed said:

I think we are supposed to love one another - everyone.  All of our neighbors. 

every

last

one

of

them.

God loves all of us.... right?

I'm not sure, I'll ask Jesus.

Quote

he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him

So I just have to love you, Jesus?

Quote

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me. ... If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him

okay, but what about "love one another"

Quote

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

That's the one. That's some great love you have for us Jesus. I mean, you even died for us!

Quote

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Yeah. That's what I said, for us.

Quote

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Bummer.

 

It sounds like God allows for his rain to fall on the just and the unjust, but there's a (special? level of?) love that's reserved for those who keep His commandments.

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, changed said:

I think we are supposed to love one another - everyone.  All of our neighbors. 

every

last

one

of

them.

God loves all of us.... right?

There is an ocean of difference between "like" and "love".  I love my brother.  I think he's an incredible father.  I think he is a hard worker.  I have feelings of love for him.  However, I don't like to be around him for more than a few minutes because he annoys the boloney out of me.

[mordorbund]

35 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

It sounds like God allows for his rain to fall on the just and the unjust, but there's a (special? level of?) love that's reserved for those who keep His commandments.

 

4 minutes ago, changed said:

Luke 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?...

....

wow, did not think this would turn into a debate - that we are supposed to love one another.

As I noted above, it looks like we have 2 commandments to love, one of which you quoted and one which I quoted. What then are we to do with this? Do we discard whichever one doesn't suit us? or do we recognize that there is a level (form? type?) of love which is unconditional, and another that comes with strings attached.

When should love be conditional and when should it be unconditional?

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, changed said:

 

Do you know what happens to people who are put in solitary confinement for long time periods?  They go insane, and try to kill themselves....

For someone who cannot get "married", because they are physically different - are born without body parts, are not male, are not female - and they know who they are, what they are ...  they already feel alone, isolated - .... solitary confinement makes people go insane.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Effects_and_access_to_care

 

Did you just compare solitary confinement to following God's law?  

[mordorbund]

11 minutes ago, changed said:

dude, ya got to let go of the hate, life is too short.

The fact that my post is interpreted as hate highlights my question I think.

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, changed said:

My grandfather never said "I love you" ... somehow we always felt loved though.

Probably because his wife could cook.

[Anddenex]

15 minutes ago, changed said:

Doctrine and Covenants 64:10
10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

Luke 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?...

You are not a God yet mordorbund... guess that means you (and all of us) are supposed to forgive and love everyone....

wow, did not think this would turn into a debate - that we are supposed to love one another.

did someone, somewhere knock you around some? have not been able to let go of that? feel insecure, guarded, not able to just hang with everyone yet? .... dude, ya got to let go of the hate, life is too short.

Oh my, talk about a twist of words, which is apparent you didn't even read or care to "understand" (there is that word again -- understand) what @mordorbund was saying. He can defend himself; however, he said nothing about being a God, so that is moot and childish.

Remember, you are the one that turned this into a debate of how much you know and understand better than anyone everyone else -- unless they agree with you. The personal attack against Mordobund, about him somehow feeling insecure or knocked around is again childish, has nothing to do with his comment regarding God's love, which you did not understand -- maybe you will understand it better this way:

Ye

are

my 

friends,

if

ye

do

whatsoever

I 

command 

you.

OK, that was just one verse you clearly missed. How did you miss this, that if we are doing what God has commanded then that means we are forgiving and loving one another? And then you personally attacked

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Remember, you are the one that turned this into a debate of how much you know and understand better than anyone everyone else -- unless they agree with you.

Welome to the internet @Anddenex. That always happens all the time in religious forums. 

Edited February 7, 2018 by MormonGator

[askandanswer]

2 hours ago, changed said:

I think we are supposed to love one another - everyone.  All of our neighbors. 

every

last

one

of

them.

God loves all of us.... right?

Probably He does, but He will still rain down fire and brimstone or cause to be burned with fire, or cast mountains on those who sin and consistently reject His prophets.

Genesis 19:2

24  Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
 

3rd Nephi 8

 7 And there were exceedingly sharp lightnings, such as never had been known in all the land.
8  And the city of Zarahemla did take fire.
9  And the city of Moroni did sink into the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof were drowned.
10  And the earth was carried up upon the city of Moronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great mountain.
11  And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward.
12  But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quaking of the whole earth;
13  And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough.
14  And many great and notable cities were sunk, and many were burned, and many were shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth, and the inhabitants thereof were slain, and the places were left desolate.
 

[Vort]

34 minutes ago, changed said:

did someone, somewhere knock you around some? have not been able to let go of that? feel insecure, guarded, not able to just hang with everyone yet? .... dude, ya got to let go of the hate, life is too short.

This is beyond sad. This is tragic. @mordorbund provides one of the best posts in this entire thread, and @changed is so threatened by his ironclad logic that she resorts to ad hominem.

None is so blind as (s)he who will not see.

[Anddenex]

4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Welome to the internet @Anddenex. That always happens in every forum known to the world. 

Wait, what!? This is the internet! Freak...dang conspiracies!

 

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Anddenex said:

Wait, what!? This is the internet! Freak...dang conspiracies!

 

People who disagree with you will also call you a Nazi in political forums. I'm sorry to break your heart kid, but you need to grow up sometime.  

[NeuroTypical]

1. I know a lot about forgiving people, and I think I have a pretty good grasp of how to love just about everyone.  Yes, people.  Yes, everyone.  I've reached the top of a few Everests in my day on those topics.
2. I believe the things God has revealed through His scriptures and prophets about how important marriage is, and how marriage is made of one man and one woman.

This isn't cognitive dissonance, I'm not holding two conflicting or contradictory things in my head and trying to make them both true.  They are both true, and they don't contradict each other.  I may not have a full understanding of all the ins and outs of how these things work together, but no, they don't contradict.  Every attempt to force contradiction that I've seen, boils down to one simple concept:  "But I wanna!  And since you're saying no, therefore that isn't love!"

It ain't true.

[Blossom76]

On 06/02/2018 at 11:27 AM, MormonGator said:

If the LDS church goes down the community of christ path and becomes more "liberal" on sexual matters what do you think will happen? Not a challenge/argument, just a question. 

I hope this does happen (I know I won't be popular again ?).  I think the LDS Church could learn a lot from The Community of Christ (RLDS) and their stance on issues like this one.  I think the LDS church needs to change and become more progressive so it can survive long term.  Keep up with the times so to speak.  The Bible gives instructions on how to treat your slaves and what to do about a disobedient son (not a good ending for the son!), we can look at that and say, that's not relevant to this day and age.  The bible also condemns the eating of selfish many more times than homosexuality, but I don't see a people being called sinners for that.  A lot of converts to the Community of Christ come from the LDS church.

[Vort]

37 minutes ago, Blossom76 said:

I think the LDS Church could learn a lot from The Community of Christ (RLDS) and their stance on issues like this one.  I think the LDS church needs to change and become more progressive so it can survive long term.

If the Church survives long-term by sacrificing its foundational doctrines, it deserves to die the horrible death currently being suffered by other denominations who are trying to remain "relevant" by being "progressive". Such seeking after worldly popularity at the expense of God's word turns my stomach.

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, Blossom76 said:

I hope this does happen (I know I won't be popular again ?).  I think the LDS Church could learn a lot from The Community of Christ (RLDS) and their stance on issues like this one.  I think the LDS church needs to change and become more progressive so it can survive long term.  Keep up with the times so to speak.  The Bible gives instructions on how to treat your slaves and what to do about a disobedient son (not a good ending for the son!), we can look at that and say, that's not relevant to this day and age.  The bible also condemns the eating of selfish many more times than homosexuality, but I don't see a people being called sinners for that.  A lot of converts to the Community of Christ come from the LDS church.

Feel free to adjust the taste with many grains of your salt of choice.  

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_actions_prohibited_by_the_Bible

[Blossom76]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

If the Church survives long-term by sacrificing its foundational doctrines, it deserves to die the horrible death currently being suffered by other denominations who are trying to remain "relevant" by being "progressive". Such seeking after worldly popularity at the expense of God's word turns my stomach.

Gods word says a lot of things we don't follow, even from the New Testament not marrying your brothers wife if he dies and they had no children is against Gods word Mark 12:19, as is women praying without their head being covered 1 Corinthians 11:5 women shouldn't speak in church 1 Corinthians 14:34  women shouldn't wear jewellery or make up  1 Peter 3:3 don't pray in public Matthew 6:6.

I don't think its as simple as Gods word says such and such.

My favourite verse in the New Testament is Galatians 2:21  

¹⁹ “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. ²⁰ I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.²¹ I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Edited February 8, 2018 by Blossom76