Is it a sin to go against the cousel of the Prophet?

[BJ64]

Is it a sin to go against the counsel of the prophet even if that which he counsels against is not a commandment?

For example caffeinated soft drinks are not against the word of wisdom  but several prophets have counseled against their use.

Therefore are you sinning by drinking caffeinated soft drinks even if they aren’t against the word of wisdom since you are disobeying the prophet’s counsel?

[Jane_Doe]

I think it does everyone a disservice to hold a leader to be automatically always perfectly infallible in everything he says or does.  That's not how the Gospel works.  Rather, look into every matter with study and prayer.  

[NeuroTypical]

24 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

For example caffeinated soft drinks are not against the word of wisdom  but several prophets have counseled against their use.

They have?  Who?

 

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Is it a sin to go against the counsel of the prophet even if that which he counsels against is not a commandment?

For example caffeinated soft drinks are not against the word of wisdom  but several prophets have counseled against their use.

Therefore are you sinning by drinking caffeinated soft drinks even if they aren’t against the word of wisdom since you are disobeying the prophet’s counsel?

I think it depends on the spirit with which you do it. It isn't a recommend question, so the expectation and the standard for righteousness remains between you and the Lord.

[zil]

8 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

They have?  Who?

 

If I still had that VCR > DVD recorder thing, I could rip a copy of my VHS that has President Hinckley on 60 Minutes saying that Mormons don't drink caffeinated soda.  If you really need it, I could record that portion with my cell phone pointed at the TV.  (Assuming the tape will still play - it was recorded when I was in Moscow and shipped to me - I think.)

[BJ64]

7 minutes ago, zil said:

If I still had that VCR > DVD recorder thing, I could rip a copy of my VHS that has President Hinckley on 60 Minutes saying that Mormons don't drink caffeinated soda.  If you really need it, I could record that portion with my cell phone pointed at the TV.  (Assuming the tape will still play - it was recorded when I was in Moscow and shipped to me - I think.)

Yes, I saw that interview when it first aired. 

[zil]

13 minutes ago, zil said:

If I still had that VCR > DVD recorder thing, I could rip a copy of my VHS that has President Hinckley on 60 Minutes saying that Mormons don't drink caffeinated soda.  If you really need it, I could record that portion with my cell phone pointed at the TV.  (Assuming the tape will still play - it was recorded when I was in Moscow and shipped to me - I think.)

Ah, you don't need me, YouTube has everything: snippet here, entire interview here.

[BJ64]

18 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

They have?  Who?

 

Here is an article with several quotes. 

http://www.ldsliving.com/What-the-Prophets-Have-Really-Said-About-Caffeine/s/86182

I don’t want to make this all about caffeine. I just wonder where the line is between commandments and prophetic admonitions. When is it okay to go against the prophets counsel? 

Its no longer of concern since the church is leaving the Boy Scouts of America but in the past when I’ve said that I don’t support scouting because of their gay issues I would get a lecture from my father about how the prophet supports scouting therefore if you don’t support scouting then you are going against the prophet. I told him that we don’t believe in the infallibility of prophets but he didn’t agree with that either. 

[Traveler]

53 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Is it a sin to go against the counsel of the prophet even if that which he counsels against is not a commandment?

For example caffeinated soft drinks are not against the word of wisdom  but several prophets have counseled against their use.

Therefore are you sinning by drinking caffeinated soft drinks even if they aren’t against the word of wisdom since you are disobeying the prophet’s counsel?

It is a sin to reject counsel from any priesthood leader given by the Spirit.  But, according to my personal understanding of divine principles that apply to the Kingdom of G-d - it is a greater sin to think counsel given by the spirit does not apply to you or that things given to you through the spirit - apply to everybody else.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Here is an article with several quotes. 

http://www.ldsliving.com/What-the-Prophets-Have-Really-Said-About-Caffeine/s/86182

I don’t want to make this all about caffeine. I just wonder where the line is between commandments and prophetic admonitions. When is it okay to go against the prophets counsel? 

Its no longer of concern since the church is leaving the Boy Scouts of America but in the past when I’ve said that I don’t support scouting because of their gay issues I would get a lecture from my father about how the prophet supports scouting therefore if you don’t support scouting then you are going against the prophet. I told him that we don’t believe in the infallibility of prophets but he didn’t agree with that either. 

A couple of questions:  #1.  What does the oath and covenant of the priesthood mean to you?

#2. What does it mean to be morally "straight"?  Is there a difference between being gay and straight?

 

The Traveler

[zil]

Personally, I like this definition for "sin" - it's brutal and leaves you no place to hide, while at the same time reminding you of the solution - repentance and Christ's Atonement.  It's also a strictly personal definition - my capacity and another's capacity will never be identical (until we're both perfect), thus comparison with others is useless - and I have no business judging others because I have no way of knowing their capacity.  It's brilliance in four sentences:

Quote

Sin is waste. It is doing one thing when you should be doing other and better things for which you have the capacity. Hence, there are no innocent, idle thoughts. That is why even the righteous must repent, constantly and progressively, since all fall short of their capacity and calling.

-- Approaching Zion, Chapter 3: "Zeal without Knowledge", by Hugh Nibley

Edited September 2, 2018 by zil

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

They have?  Who?

 

If it was truly against church teaching, why does BYU offer it in the cafeteria?

[zil]

Just now, MormonGator said:

If it was truly against church teaching, why does BYU offer it in the cafeteria?

I'm pretty sure it's not against Church teaching - rather, prophets have counseled against it.

Meanwhile, could someone who has ice cream in the freezer eat some for me?  I have nothing dessert-like anywhere in the house, but would really like some dessert, so I need someone to be my proxy...

[Fether]

1 hour ago, BJ64 said:

Is it a sin to go against the counsel of the prophet even if that which he counsels against is not a commandment?

For example caffeinated soft drinks are not against the word of wisdom  but several prophets have counseled against their use.

Therefore are you sinning by drinking caffeinated soft drinks even if they aren’t against the word of wisdom since you are disobeying the prophet’s counsel?

I think the biggest problem you are running into is comparing the words of the dead prophets to the words of the living prophets.

And even beyond that, you are taking apocryphal sources (non-Church owner sources like BYU, Deseret Book and Book Craft)

A standard I live by is that if I can’t find it on LDS.org then I don’t accept it as doctrine.

[Fether]

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

If it was truly against church teaching, why does BYU offer it in the cafeteria?

A better arguement is why does the temple cafeteria offer it

Edited September 2, 2018 by Fether

[Guest MormonGator]

26 minutes ago, Fether said:

A better arguement is why does the temple cafeteria offer it

Because the whiskey wasn't selling well. 

[Iggy]

This is from Wikipedia about Coco-Cola. 

Quote

 

When launched,[[ in1886]] Coca-Cola's two key ingredients were cocaine and caffeine. The cocaine was derived from the coca leaf and the caffeine from kola nut, leading to the name Coca-Cola (the "K" in Kola was replaced with a "C" for marketing purposes).^[62][63]

Coca – cocaine

Pemberton called for five ounces of coca leaf per gallon of syrup, a significant dose; in 1891, Candler claimed his formula (altered extensively from Pemberton's original) contained only a tenth of this amount. Coca-Cola once contained an estimated nine milligrams of cocaine per glass. (For comparison, a typical dose or "line" of cocaine is 50–75 mg.^[64]) In 1903, it was removed.^[65]

After 1904, instead of using fresh leaves, Coca-Cola started using "spent" leaves – the leftovers of the cocaine-extraction process with trace levels of cocaine.^[66] Since then, Coca-Cola uses a cocaine-free coca leaf extract prepared at a Stepan Company plant in Maywood, New Jersey.^[67]

 

I believe that is why the early Prophets cautioned against drinking Cola's.  In today's times, caffeine is addictive. When a person has been drinking caffeinated drinks for weeks to years, then quits "Cold Turkey", they suffer withdrawal from it. For me it was headaches, shakes, fatigue, anxiety, irritability. This lasted about two months, and it was really hard NOT to drink my Coke.

But I also found out that the carbonation was bad for me too. Whether it was an 8oz fountain UN-cola soda or a 2 liter bottle - I would get muscle cramps bad!! The only thing to stop them was re-hydration drinks - a quart or more! The carbonation dehydrates you. That is why you keep drinking, because your thirst is not quenched.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Iggy
spelling, always it is spelling errors! :(

[MrShorty]

I think this can be a good question. As noted, it shouldn't be just about caffeine. As another example, (for those of us in Utah), if we choose to vote for prop 2, will that be a sin? Was it a sin for those in '33 who voted for the repeal of prohibition?

[Fether]

9 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I think this can be a good question. As noted, it shouldn't be just about caffeine. As another example, (for those of us in Utah), if we choose to vote for prop 2, will that be a sin? Was it a sin for those in '33 who voted for the repeal of prohibition?

@BJ64

I think what is also important is that every action comes with its own consequence. The more we take care of our body and avoid damaging substances, they’re blessings we will have.

Obedience to the literal words of the Prophet will not be enough to dictate how we live our life.

[zil]

Related to what @Fether just said, I think the question is coming from the wrong perspective at best.  It's about squeezing into heaven by the skin of your teeth rather than having done every possible thing one could to prepare for that existence and glory.  Who cares whether it's a sin to go against the counsel of the prophet?  If their counsel is wise (and one can determine this by comparing against scripture and the testimony of the Holy Ghost), then why not follow it even if failure to do so isn't technically a sin and won't technically keep you from the Celestial kingdom.

What if it will make you a little bit healthier?  What if it will keep you out of the wrong place at the wrong time or put you in the right place at the right time?  What if it will save you time or money?  What if it will open the eyes of your understanding all the sooner?  What if it will make you a better human than you would otherwise be?  Etc.

Every blessing is predicated on something, and it isn't possible to be too good, too wise, or too obedient.

The question shouldn't be if it's a sin to go against counsel, but whether heeding the counsel will bless our lives or others' in some way.

[Grunt]

Who cares if it is a sin?  We are to follow the Prophet, correct?

I have a follow-up question:  Why do the bulk of your posts have to do with topics that suggest doing anything but striving to follow the Prophet and Church leaders?

[Fether]

2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Why do the bulk of your posts have to do with topics that suggest doing anything but striving to follow the Prophet and Church leaders?

In his defense, he is asking and not just throwing prophetic counsel out the window.

These are great questions and when someone dives into church history and reads quotes from prophets throughout time... it can be confusing cause often times the counsel is contradictory. (Ie cola drinks being counseled against in the past, but being served in temple cafeterias today).

I have noticed that prophets pre-President Hunter were very open with their opinions and often time made specific declarations on specific applications. I haven’t seen much of that since. I sometimes wonder if that is on purpose.

[Grunt]

Just now, Fether said:

In his defense, he is asking and not just throwing prophetic counsel out the window.

These are great questions and when someone dives into church history and reads quotes from prophets throughout time... it can be confusing cause often times the counsel is contradictory. (Ie cola drinks being counseled against in the past, but being served in temple cafeterias today).

I have noticed that prophets pre-President Hunter were very open with their opinions and often time made specific declarations on specific applications. I haven’t seen much of that since. I sometimes wonder if that is on purpose.

Thanks.  I guess I'm just so new I don't see the subtleties.  Perhaps I should read more and post less.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

.  Perhaps I should read more and post less.

We all love your posts bro. 

[zil]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

We all love your posts bro. 

Particularly the ones on the west side of the property - so straight and evenly spaced.