Would you date or marry a woman who had an abortion?

[Fether]

25 minutes ago, dahlia said:

before you were a member of the Church?

 

5 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

before she became a member of the church.

Is being a member of the church synonymous with true repentance now?

[lostinwater]

Thankfully, the people who wouldn't, almost always won't.  Better for everyone.  

But perhaps everyone should substitute soldiers in war, or those who administer the death penalty, consider why their answers may be different, while remembering just what a broad range of motives get covered up by a society's near unilateral justification or lack thereof.

[Vort]

6 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

To clarify a little more.  The woman had the abortion before she became a member of the church.  If you were a single guy looking to get married, would you date a woman who had an abortion?

What if you never asked and you got married and then found out?

If you were a single guy looking to get married, would you date a woman who had been gang-raped on a weekly basis between the ages of 7 and 14?

If you were a single guy looking to get married, would you date a woman who had contracted AIDS from a blood transfusion?

If you were a single guy looking to get married, would you date a woman who had gotten drunk one night ten years ago and killed three pedestrians with her car?

If you were a single guy looking to get married, would you date a woman who, as a child, microwaved her pet turtle when she was bored and tweeted about how it had exploded?

If you were a single guy looking to get married, would you date a woman who had been sexually abused by her father for her entire life?

If you were a single guy looking to get married, would you date a woman who was reared to think she was ugly and worthless?

If you were a single guy looking to get married, would you date a woman who, as a teen, had gossiped so vilely about an acquaintance that the acquaintance committed suicide?

The above situations are all examples of physical and/or spiritual damage. Some were inflicted on the innocent person, some were self-inflicted. Some were criminal, even if not prosecuted for reasons of age or something else. But they all (except perhaps the AIDS one, which might be strictly physical) share one thing in common: All have resulted in profound spiritual damage.

As I have written many times before, YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO DATE OR MARRY ANYONE YOU DON'T WANT TO DATE OR MARRY, FOR WHATEVER REASON SEEMS GOOD TO YOU. I don't care if it's dark hair or obesity or height or race or skin color or acne or not curvy enough or you don't like her brother or she cheers for Florida or she laughs weird or her favorite food is chitlins and kimchee. Any reason that you deem sufficient IS sufficient. You might be a fool, you might be just plain stupid, you might be a bigot—doesn't matter. If it bothers you enough that you don't want to marry her, that's reason enough not to marry her.

Given the endless list of trivial and stupid reasons you might choose not to date and marry someone, who could possibly object to, "I don't want to date or marry her because she is profoundly spiritually damaged, and I don't want to spend my life dealing with that"?

Sure. If a woman's abortion earlier in her life bothers you, don't date or marry her.

If she hid that fact from you while you were dating...I don't know. Maybe it would depend on her reasons. That would be tough, almost a case of marrying under false pretenses. But I would be very hesitant to give a blanket "divorce her". I think in many cases, that would be the wrong thing to do.

[Guest Scott]

Abortion is still forgivable; at least according to our Church leaders:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/10/abortion-an-assault-on-the-defenseless?lang=eng#note17-

Repentance is Possible

Is there any hope for the person who has participated in the act of abortion? Is there any hope for those who have so sinned and who now suffer heartbreak? The answer is yes! “As far as has been revealed, a person may repent and be forgiven for the sin of abortion.” We know the Lord will help all who are truly repentant.

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1973/04/policies-and-procedures-statement-on-abortion?lang=eng

As the matter stands today, no definite statement has been made by the Lord one way or another regarding the crime of abortion. So far as is known, he has not listed it alongside the crime of the unpardonable sin and shedding of innocent human blood. That he has not done so would suggest that it is not in that class of crime and therefore that it will be amenable to the laws of repentance and forgiveness.

That in no way says that it isn't a serious sin.  You can still get baptized after having an abortion.  

As of 2018, Question 4 in the convert baptism interview is as follows:

Have you ever committed a serious crime? If so, are you now on probation or parole? Have you ever participated in an abortion? Have you ever committed a homosexual transgression?

See here:

https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-prepare-people-for-baptism-and-confirmation?lang=eng

In the above link, see also the instructions to missionaries of what to do if someone they are teaching has had an abortion.  

Question 4 in the baptismal interview asks if a person has ever committed a serious crime (if so, are they on probation or parole), participated in an abortion, or committed a homosexual transgression. What should I do if someone confesses such a sin?

Instructions for teaching missionaries: Sometimes a person may volunteer information about such sins as you teach about the commandments and invite them to make commitments...Do not schedule a baptismal date or make any promises about whether they will be cleared for baptism and confirmation. Express your love and review the principle of repentance and forgiveness. Kindly explain that these sins are serious and that a person with more maturity and experience (your mission president or someone he assigns) will talk with them and help them with these matters. Always provide hope in Christ’s Atonement. Then send a baptismal interview request directly to the mission president.

They still can be cleared for baptism and thus fully forgiven, but there are additional steps.  

Quote

So is abortion equivalent to murder?

According to our Church, no; it is not equivalent to murder, but is it still a serious sin (see above).

As far as the marriage question goes, I have never had to deal with that situation, so it would be hard to say.  I would probably have to be confronted with it to answer the question truthfully and with assurance.  As to speculate on the matter; I would say yes; I could, but that would depend on a lot of other factors.  It would also depend on which point in my life I was in.  I may say yes now, but 10-25 years ago (I was married 25+ years ago), I probably would have said no.  

 

[askandanswer]

In my opinion, there's only ONE thing you need to consider when deciding who to marry, and that is the answer you get when you ask God if you should marry this person. If you are completely certain that the answer you get comes from God then absolutely nothing else matters.

[marge]

As a woman, if someone I was dating asked me a question like that, I'd probably dump them!

[askandanswer]

Welcome Marge, lovely to see another Aussie on here. There are many members on this board who really need the leavening presence of us Aussies.  

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Actually, I think that is a legit question.

No, not really.  The thing is that this sort of thinking puts an inconsistent and hypocritical imbalance against men.

If the man is "equally" responsible...

9 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Does the sin not equally fall on their heads as well? 

Then:

• You MUST assume that the baby is alive from conception.  
• You MUST accept that the father also has a say in whether she gets an abortion.  You MUST DEMAND that the father has a right to stop an abortion as well.
• You MUST accept the fact that it IS murder.  Not "like unto" murder, but absolutely equivalent.  Therefore, you MUST accept that abortion is as unforgivable as murder.

We don't know about #1.
Laws that I'm aware of don't allow the father to have any say in it whatsoever.
Current statements from the Church have been that no revelation to this effect (#3) has been given by the Lord.

Maybe it should be this way.  But it isn't currently practiced this way, is it?  You can't have it both ways.  Either he is equally responsible and therefore have equal rights.  Or he is not responsible (or at least not AS responsible) and has less or no right regarding the decision.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, marge said:

As a woman, if someone I was dating asked me a question like that, I'd probably dump them!

Why would anyone ask you if you'd marry a woman who had had an abortion?  You're not a lesbian/bisexual are you?  

Edited November 4, 2018 by Guest

[The Folk Prophet]

12 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Actually, I think that is a legit question.

Really. It's legitimate to presume the person who made a sexual mistake is equally responsible for another person's choice to murder the result of that mistake? 

How about we presume that each person is responsible for their own sins?

[Lost Boy]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Really. It's legitimate to presume the person who made a sexual mistake is equally responsible for another person's choice to murder the result of that mistake? 

How about we presume that each person is responsible for their own sins?

Whereas he may not be equally responsible. He is responsible for putting the woman in an incredibly difficult situation. So if he has put her in an extremely difficult situation, part of the blame goes to him. 

[Just_A_Guy]

16 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

[1]Consider that God knows all.  Surely if God knows all, he would know that the abortion was going to happen.  I don't believe for a second that if the fetus has a soul, that that soul would be in any way damned.  So although a terrible thing abortion is, I don't think you are condemning a life to hell.  Rather if the soul exists at that point, it would be treated as any soul who died before the age of accountability.  I don't know if any church leader has actually come out and said when a soul enters the body.  What we do know is that many women get pregnant and have early miscarriages without them even knowing they were pregnant.

[2]So is abortion equivalent to murder?  I don't really know, but my gut tells me no.  There have been nearly 50 million abortions in the US alone since 1970.  Is God going to look on all of these women as murderers?  I really hope not.

[3]I truly believe God still sees these women as his daughters...  Daughters whom he loves.  And if he can love them, why can't I?

[4]How about the guys that knocked up the women who have abortions? Does the sin not equally fall on their heads as well?  I think some of you will try and argue that it is the woman's choice, so no.  But I would put it out there that the instigator of the series of events that lead to the horrible choice lies squarely with the guy as well.

[5]I personally can't through a stone at someone who came to the decision that an abortion was the solution.  It couldn't be easy and it is a decision that will live with them for the rest of their lives.  I would hope that if ever I do something horribly wrong, those around me will be able to forgive.

1.  Abortion is not mitigated by the fact that the vicim’s soul was spared damnation—or by the fact that a certain number of pregnancies end in natural miscarriage—any more than the gravity of murder is somehow mitigated by the fact that those victims’ souls are also spared damnation or that all people eventually die anyways.  

2.  I think you’re right that abortion isn’t quite on the order of murder, simply because a) there is plausible deniability as to when a fetus truly becomes “alive” and b) Church procedure handles the perpetrators of the various sins differently.  But that doesn’t mean abortion isn’t a HUGE deal.  And the notion that *any* sin becomes less horrifying because of the fact that lots of other people participated in it—we don’t apply that line of thought to the Holocaust, we don’t apply it to the Rape of Nanking, we don’t apply it to the My Lai massacre or to antebellum slavery in the American South.  God may indeed forgive the perpetrators of these horrors; but that doesn’t lessen the horror of what they have done.  To build on your example about soldiers—would you marry one of the My Lai perpetrators less than five years after he had come home from war? 

3.  @Vort‘s point applies here and bears repeating.  Just because God loves someone, doesn’t mean that you or I should commit to a marriage with that person or that the marriage is likely to be successful.  God’s forgiveness is based in His perfect knowledge of our hearts.  My marriage is based on my trusting faith in the intents and spiritual state of my intended.  He need not be concerned about deception; a mortal contemplating marriage, very much does.

4.  I think most of the LDS folks who would have a hard time marrying a woman who’d had an abortion, would also have a hard time marrying a man who had sired a child out of wedlock; regardless of the child’s ultimate fate.  

That said, I do think you’re creating a false equivalency.  The dad who sends his kid out trick-or-treating at night without glow sticks, is negligent; but he is not on the same level of culpability as the drunk driver who blows through a red light and kills the kid in the crosswalk.

5.  We aren’t talking about throwing stones.  We are talking about declining to marry someone.  

And this comes back to Vort’s point.  It’s common in LDS-oriented discussions for folks of a less-than-orthodox stripe to take it for granted that in order to be truly Christlike, a Saint has the obligation to marry the first person who asks them, irrespective of the Saint’s own views on their respective compatabilities—that the Saint must open his/her residence, share his/her paycheck, make his/herself sexually available, and quite literally subjugate every facet of his/her social, spiritual, intellectual, financial, professional, and procreative life to a person with whom the Saint is not (for any reason) 100% comfortable doing so.  I don’t know where we get this notion that the “TBM”s of the Church must not only love and fellowship their less-stalwart brethren, but quite literally “put out” for them.  It frankly sounds an awful lot like “rape culture” to me. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Lost Boy]

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

1.  Abortion is not mitigated by the fact that the vicim’s soul was spared damnation—or by the fact that a certain number of pregnancies end in natural miscarriage—any more than the gravity of murder is somehow mitigated by the fact that those victims’ souls are also spared damnation or that all people eventually die anyways.  

2.  I think you’re right that abortion isn’t quite on the order of murder, simply because a) there is plausible deniability as to when a fetus truly becomes “alive” and b) Church procedure handles the perpetrators of the various sins differently.  But that doesn’t mean abortion isn’t a HUGE deal.  And the notion that *any* sin becomes less horrifying because of the fact that lots of other people participated in it—we don’t apply today to the Holocaust, we don’t apply it to the Rape of Nanking, we don’t apply it to the My Lai massacre or southern slavery.  God may indeed forgive the perpetrators of these horrors; but that doesn’t lessen the horror of what they have done.  To build on your example about soldiers—would you marry one of the My Lai perpetrators less than five years after he had come home from war? 

3.  @Vort‘s point applies here and bears repeating.  Just because God loves someone, doesn’t mean that you or I should commit to a marriage with that person or that the marriage is likely to be successful. 

4.  I think most of the LDS folks who would have a hard time marrying a woman who’d had an abortion, would also have a hard time marrying a man who had sired a child out of wedlock; regardless of the child’s ultimate fate.  

That said, I do think you’re creating a false equivalency.  The dad who sends his kid out trick-or-treating at night without glow sticks, is negligent; but he is not on the same level of culpability as the drunk driver who blows through a red light and kills the kid in the crosswalk.

5.  We aren’t talking about throwing stones.  We are talking about declining to marry someone.  

And this comes back to Vort’s point.  It’s common in LDS-oriented discussions for folks of a less-than-orthodox stripe to take it for granted that in order to be truly Christlike, a Saint has the obligation to marry the first person who asks them, irrespective of the Saint’s own views on their respective compatabilities—that the Saint must open his/her residence, share his/her paycheck, make his/herself sexually available, and quite literally subjugate every facet of his/her social, spiritual, intellectual, financial, professional, and procreative life to a person with whom the Saint is not (for any reason) 100% comfortable doing so.  I don’t know where we get this notion that the “TBM”s of the Church must not only love and fellowship their less-stalwart brethren, but quite literally “put out” for them.  It frankly sounds an awful lot like “rape culture” to me. 

I don't think it is anything like sending a kid out for trick or treating. 

A guy has sex with a knowledge that their act has a good chance of ending in a pregnancy. And most likely a pregnancy he does not want. But he gets to wash his hands of it because it is not his choice.  So yes, I still believe he bears a great part of the responsibility. 

As for whom you date and marry, certainly no one should force you to marry anyone and it should be your choice. I don't think that is the point. The point is whether you are capable of looking past a past sin or not. Unfortunately, some here can't. Even though christ can forgive and make clean. Some would still hold that deed against the person. 

[Grunt]

11 hours ago, marge said:

As a woman, if someone I was dating asked me a question like that, I'd probably dump them!

As a man, I would be glad you saved me a lot of headache.

[Just_A_Guy]

16 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

[1]I don't think it is anything like sending a kid out for trick or treating. 

[2]A guy has sex with a knowledge that their act has a good chance of ending in a pregnancy. And most likely a pregnancy he does not want. But he gets to wash his hands of it because it is not his choice.  So yes, I still believe he bears a great part of the responsibility. 

[3]As for whom you date and marry, certainly no one should force you to marry anyone and it should be your choice. I don't think that is the point. The point is whether you are capable of looking past a past sin or not. Unfortunately, some here can't. Even though christ can forgive and make clean. Some would still hold that deed against the person. 

1.  The point was not that fornicatjon is equivalent to sending a kid out trick-or-treating; the point was comparative negligence, proximate cause, and last-clear-chance.

2. “A great part”, sure.  But that’s not what you said.  Your initial point was that he bears “equal” responsibility, which is what I take issue with.

I agree that having sex constitutes actual notice that a pregnancy may result.  So does the law, which is why men are held liable for child support whether or not they wanted the resultant child.  And so does the Church, which is part of why fornication is deemed to be such a big deal in matters of ecclesiastical discipline.  Men do not “wash their hands” of the results of their profligacy before the law, before the Church, or before God.  But the simple fact is that if a woman kills a child with no input from the child’s father—they are both fornicators, but only she is a killer. Only she agreed to let the child, heart beating, brain pulsing, arms and legs flailing, be torn out of her uterus one limb at a time and thrown into a landfill in a bloody bag marked “biohazard”. Only she paid a “doctor” to do that to herself and her child.

3.  Fair point, but that’s part of mortality:  that many of us just can’t get past some things (especially when we are still in our twenties, when most marriages occur), that we can’t know for sure whether third parties have gotten past other things, and that a lot of the folks who pride themselves on the ability to “get past” other people’s sins do so, not by forgiving the sin; but by rationalizing it.  

Edited November 4, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest MormonGator]

21 hours ago, dahlia said:

A lot of men worried about what a woman does.

The question should be, 'Would you date or marry a man who wanted to condemn you for something you did before you even met him and before you were a member of the Church?'

Amen. 

[anatess2]

There are lots of fish in the sea.  I don’t have to marry a guy whose face I don’t like.  After all, it’s the first thing I see when I wake up in the morning.

Not marrying a person who aborted a baby is not the same as condemning that person.  It simply means life is too complicated to have to be guilt-tripped into dedicating the rest of your life with that kind of baggage.

And yes.  Doesn’t matter the reason for the abortion.  It is an experience that stays with you for the rest of your life.

So sure, if a person is such that you would happily deal with waking up to his ugly face every morning, you could also possibly find a woman that you would happily carry that baggage with her for the rest of your life.

People who guilt-trip others into marrying a person (lest you be thought of as condemning or unforgiving or intolerant or whatever)  should be whipped in public.  Ok ok... getting too overly dramatic there. 😉

Edited November 5, 2018 by anatess2

[marge]

13 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Why would anyone ask you if you'd marry a woman who had had an abortion?  You're not a lesbian/bisexual are you?  

🤣😂  Whoops!  I'm defiantly not a lesbian!

To clear things up, if I was dating a man I was romantically interested in and he asked me if I'd had an abortion I'd be highly insulted and dump him immediately.  

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, marge said:

🤣😂  Whoops!  I'm defiantly not a lesbian!

To clear things up, if I was dating a man I was romantically interested in and he asked me if I'd had an abortion I'd be highly insulted and dump him immediately.  

Sure, it’s nice for the guy to just kinda know you’re not capable of such a thing, but this is what I learned being the only girl in a group of guys... they’re not the most intuitive people on the planet... 

[marge]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Sure, it’s nice for the guy to just kinda know you’re not capable of such a thing, but this is what I learned being the only girl in a group of guys... they’re not the most intuitive people on the planet... 

I'm not going to ask him 'excuse me before I get serious about you, have you ever murdered anyone?'  Asking if I've had an abortion is the same thing as far as I'm concerned and I'd be super insulted.  I wouldn't want to be with anyone who would think I could have possibly done such a thing.  He could take his judgemental un-intuitive butt elsewhere 😉

[omegaseamaster75]

On 11/3/2018 at 3:44 PM, Lost Boy said:

To clarify a little more.  The woman had the abortion before she became a member of the church.  If you were a single guy looking to get married, would you date a woman who had an abortion?

Yes

On 11/3/2018 at 3:44 PM, Lost Boy said:

What if you never asked and you got married and then found out?

So what? However this should be something that should come up if you are serious about marriage, there should be no secrets regarding medical history.

[Lost Boy]

17 hours ago, anatess2 said:

There are lots of fish in the sea.  I don’t have to marry a guy whose face I don’t like.  After all, it’s the first thing I see when I wake up in the morning.

Not marrying a person who aborted a baby is not the same as condemning that person.  It simply means life is too complicated to have to be guilt-tripped into dedicating the rest of your life with that kind of baggage.

And yes.  Doesn’t matter the reason for the abortion.  It is an experience that stays with you for the rest of your life.

So sure, if a person is such that you would happily deal with waking up to his ugly face every morning, you could also possibly find a woman that you would happily carry that baggage with her for the rest of your life.

People who guilt-trip others into marrying a person (lest you be thought of as condemning or unforgiving or intolerant or whatever)  should be whipped in public.  Ok ok... getting too overly dramatic there. 😉

I am not talking about guilt tripping anyone into doing anything.  The question is whether or not having a prior abortion would make you not want to marry someone or date someone granted they repented of it.

My personal take is that if the savior considers it repented of then that should be a non-issue.  But my guess is many would get hung up on it.  And if they are hung up on it, then they should move on to someone else.

[Vort]

On 11/4/2018 at 6:28 PM, marge said:

I'm not going to ask him 'excuse me before I get serious about you, have you ever murdered anyone?'

Of course you would, if you thought that was a reasonable possibility. Even if you thought there was only one chance in twenty, you would still ask. Obviously.

If a guy asks about your abortion(s) on a first date, that's probably a signal you shouldn't have a second date with him. But if the man is your fiancé or someone who might very likely become your fiancé, I don't see how that question is at all inappropriate. If my son were in such a position, I would consider acquiring that knowledge to be basic due diligence before moving into a more serious and intimate relationship.

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

Of course you would, if you thought that was a reasonable possibility. Even if you thought there was only one chance in twenty, you would still ask. Obviously.

If a guy asks about your abortion(s) on a first date, that's probably a signal you shouldn't have a second date with him. But if the man is your fiancé or someone who might very likely become your fiancé, I don't see how that question is at all inappropriate. If my son were in such a position, I would consider acquiring that knowledge to be basic due diligence before moving into a more serious and intimate relationship.

Other questions that might come up:

1.)  Do you have HIV or any other transmittable diseases?

2.)  Are you married?

3.)  Do you have children?

4.)  Are you wanted by the government?  Are you engaged in activities that can cause you to be wanted by the government?  Are you on the no-fly list?

5.)  Are you in debt?  Are you indebted to the mafia or similar organization?

6.)  Is any of your future offspring promised to some person or thing?

7.)  Do any of these questions make you uncomfortable?

 

[marge]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

Of course you would, if you thought that was a reasonable possibility. Even if you thought there was only one chance in twenty, you would still ask. Obviously.

If a guy asks about your abortion(s) on a first date, that's probably a signal you shouldn't have a second date with him. But if the man is your fiancé or someone who might very likely become your fiancé, I don't see how that question is at all inappropriate. If my son were in such a position, I would consider acquiring that knowledge to be basic due diligence before moving into a more serious and intimate relationship.

No I wouldn't ask that, and if it was asked of me I would leave the situation.  I would be horrified if I found out my son had asked a lady such a question, but I believe I have done a good job as a mother and raised him better than that.