One Foot In

[Grunt]

"One foot in" seems dumb.  Do you know the Book of Mormon is true?  Do you know the Church to be the restored Church of Christ?  Did you covenant with Heavenly Father?   Then honor those covenants and support your fellow Saints.  

Is the above not true?   Then why do you need the church?   I was teaching my children morals and values long before I knew what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was.  

[NeuroTypical]

41 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

pf?

Heh.  I was going to cite you as a witness if anyone challenged me.  

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Heh.  I was going to cite you as a witness if anyone challenged me.  

I had forgotten about that until you posted the story.

[Tyme]

4 hours ago, Vort said:

 ...aw, shucks...

I want to apologize that was not christ like of me. It seems like you are a smart, spiritual and reasonable fella. That means you would probably be a great Bishop. I just don't understand why anybody would want to be a Bishop. When I was young I pictured my self as a leader in the church and of the free world. It was rather grandiose dreams. Now I don't want any type of leadership in anything.

[Jersey Boy]

On 11/26/2018 at 11:23 PM, JustCurious said:

I grew up very active in the church, in a very active Mormon family.  Deacon, Teacher, Priest, Elder - served a mission, etc.  Many years ago when I was dating my wife, prior to marriage, we took things a little too far.  Not all the way, but a little too far, well short of all the way.  I felt bad and confessed to my bishop.  He was a good sincere man, and spoke with me a couple/few times about it.  I told him my then girlfriend and I wanted to get married.  He signed my recommend and I was set to see the stake president.  This interview was 6 days before our temple wedding.  The SP went through the normal questions.  One of course was about the Law of Chastity, where he asked if I'd ever done anything.....  ,  I told him nothing that I hadn't taken care of with my bishop.  He got real curious and started asking many more questions about this in detail, peeling off those scabs of something I thought was forgiven and in the past.  I was shocked as I'd already gone through a process with my bishop.  He ended asking when I was getting married.  I told him in 6 days.  He said "Oh, I don't know about that".  For the next couple/few days I was scared and humiliated by the situation, not knowing what would come of the temple wedding.  It is of course very scandalous if you had a temple wedding planned, then it became a civil wedding at last moment.  Everybody in the ward, etc knows what that means, even though it's none of their business.  Luckily the stake president pushed the decision back to my bishop.  My bishop was extremely confused by how the stake president was handling this.  Luckily, we got the OK and were married in the temple.  

However, during my same time of being interviewed by the stake president, my then fiancé (now wife) was being interviewed by her stake president.  She told me afterwards that her stake president was giving her very strange sexual advise about what she should do with her soon to be husband.  My wife was bothered and felt violated, as I did as well.  

These experiences were some of the final straws (among many others) that helped push us finally over the edge into mostly inactivity.  It's been 20 years of mostly inactivity ever since.  We live outside of the Utah protective shell, and we've wanted our kids to have high morals similar to Mormons, but we don't want them exposed to closely to this kind of abuse by leaders.  We tried putting "one foot in" in the local ward, but we found that to be the most shunned and outcast arrangement available with other ward members.  

Is there a place for a "one foot in" family in the local Mormon wards?  Are there wards that accept the "one foot in" families?

You and your wife started this mess when you violated the law of chastity. In spite of this fact, the fact that you were permitted to have a Temple marriage is bottom line evidence of great mercy rather than abuse. Instead of counting your blessings, you turned the responsibility for the unpleasantness of your own created mess onto other people. Do you and your wife now acknowledge the fact that you and she are much more at fault for your problems than are the Church leaders? That’s the place to start.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

If you find yourself being shunned by everyone, you gotta ask why.  An entire ward where the "vast majority of the members" are all judgey/gossippy/shunners?  Or do you have an attitude problem, or social skills needing improvement, or something you should fix about yourself?

Yep, I do not know the answer here.  But I figure the issue is worthy of some consideration.

I can say for a fact that I'm the source of being in a friendless ward. In fact, that's pretty much the story of my life.

But it isn't because I'm being "shunned."  There are very many well-meaning people in the ward who have reached out to me and shown great kindness to me.  It's just that I'm not the easiest person to understand.  People want to pigeon hole people.  I just don't fit in any box (cue Judy Tenuta -- unless you PUSH REAL HARD!!!).

But seriously, folks.  Everyone is very nice and friendly.  But no one really "gets me."  I'm never going to go on group activities or double dates with anyone in the ward.  It just isn't going to happen.  So I'm happy being somewhat outside the group.  I just hang out with my family who actually understands me.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Guest

[JohnsonJones]

I personally hope that you @JustCurious will go to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and hopefully find those that can share your thoughts and hopes and concerns and be your friend.  I hope that your children can be raised in the Church and hope that none of the comments here dissuade you from going or bringing your family with you.

If I knew of you in our area I would try to welcome you with open arms.  The church is open to all (in my opinion) regardless of how strong or weak their testimony is.  Make yourself aware of the church policies with children currently (two adults are supposed to be present at ANY activity with children or youth, including lessons at church) and request that the leadership follow these policies if they are not following them. 

I know many sometimes go to church and feel lost.  We have difficulties here where there are MANY who feel as if the church itself rejects them, but ironically are strong believers in the gospel itself.  They feel that discrimination and prejudice are held against them and that they do not have anybody to represent them in the leadership in our area.  IRONICALLY, there are MORE of them than there are of those they feel are prejudice against them as a group, or so I feel.  If they all came to church and mingled with each other, they would find great similarities between each other and probably find great friendship and social networks among the members of the church.

In that light, I always HOPE and pray that we can welcome our chapel to anyone who wishes to attend and wants to join our congregations in our churches.  If they seek to share our morals and friendship, then I think that this is as good as any reason to come.  I think it is an especially good way to bring up children and that if they can learn the teachings and morality that parents feel are good things in life, than I feel this is an extremely positive attitude to have.

I hope you will give the local congregation another chance and hopefully some good can come out of it and you can find the acceptance you are so seeking.

[Guest MormonGator]

22 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I personally hope that you @JustCurious will go to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and hopefully find those that can share your thoughts and hopes and concerns and be your friend.  I hope that your children can be raised in the Church and hope that none of the comments here dissuade you from going or bringing your family with you.

If I knew of you in our area I would try to welcome you with open arms.  The church is open to all (in my opinion) regardless of how strong or weak their testimony is.  Make yourself aware of the church policies with children currently (two adults are supposed to be present at ANY activity with children or youth, including lessons at church) and request that the leadership follow these policies if they are not following them. 

I know many sometimes go to church and feel lost.  We have difficulties here where there are MANY who feel as if the church itself rejects them, but ironically are strong believers in the gospel itself.  They feel that discrimination and prejudice are held against them and that they do not have anybody to represent them in the leadership in our area.  IRONICALLY, there are MORE of them than there are of those they feel are prejudice against them as a group, or so I feel.  If they all came to church and mingled with each other, they would find great similarities between each other and probably find great friendship and social networks among the members of the church.

In that light, I always HOPE and pray that we can welcome our chapel to anyone who wishes to attend and wants to join our congregations in our churches.  If they seek to share our morals and friendship, then I think that this is as good as any reason to come.  I think it is an especially good way to bring up children and that if they can learn the teachings and morality that parents feel are good things in life, than I feel this is an extremely positive attitude to have.

I hope you will give the local congregation another chance and hopefully some good can come out of it and you can find the acceptance you are so seeking.

Beautiful post bud. 

[NeuroTypical]

38 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I can say for a fact that I'm the source of being in a friendless ward. In fact, that's pretty much the story of my life.

But it isn't because I'm being "shunned."  There are very many well-meaning people in the ward who have reached out to me and shown great kindness to me.  It's just that I'm not the easiest person to understand. 

I get it.  Introverts of the world unite!  And by unite, I mean sit in seclusion and think similarly, but no actual interaction happens.  

It's only a problem when a) you want more interaction, and b) you start blaming everyone else for your lack of interaction.

This meme is a lighthearted attempt to describe the issue:

Edited November 28, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I get it.  Introverts of the world unite!  And by unite, I mean sit in seclusion and think similarly, but no actual interaction happens.  

It's only a problem when a) you want more interaction, and b) you start blaming everyone else for your lack of interaction.

This meme is a lighthearted attempt to describe the issue:

While that's certainly true, I'm not an introvert.  I used to be.  But I changed around 20 or 30 years ago.

I'm actually an extrovert.  And many people think I'm funny and friendly and all that.  It's just that I don't have much in common with anybody.  No one has the same interests.  I'm ok with that.

[boxer]

21 hours ago, Vort said:

Consider: Both stake presidents gave permission for the sealing to proceed, yet the OP claims ABUSE.

Seriously? ABUSE? Because the stake president wanted to make sure the young man was morally clean and worthy? "Abuse" because the fiancée's stake president gave well-meant if awkward marital/sexual advice?

At some point, people need to Grow The Heck Up and quit getting so deeply offended by stupid little things. Yes, I do mean the OP. Grow up.

To answer your question: No, there is no "one-foot-in" program that caters to those individuals who want the benefits and blessings of Church membership but don't want to actually put any effort into bettering themselves and honoring/sustaining their leaders—human beings who have jobs, spouses, children, mortgages, and all the complications and problems that go with them; human beings who make decisions and give advice, sometimes turning out to be wrong; human beings who put their pants on one leg at a time, JUST LIKE YOU.

No. If you want the benefits of membership in the kingdom of God, then BE A MEMBER OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD. That means putting your shoulder to the wheel and pushing along with everyone else. That means forgiving others their trespasses, including (perhaps especially) your leaders. Silly, meaningless crap like this? Sorry, not sorry. I have no sympathy for someone who gets what he wants and then moans about how people didn't genuflect sufficiently while serving him.

There is a place reserved for you at Church, JustCurious, but only if you're willing to accept it. Whining about an awkward moment with a stake president ten freaking years ago is not the way to accept the gift you've been offered.

Worse than that it was 20! years ago. Man that's a long time to let pride stand in the way if blessings.

I too am skeptical of the abuse claim. The only thing that comes to mind is a sp giving counsel on certain sexual practices to avoid. Considering that back in the  Kimball Benson era they spelled out very clearly certain practices should be avoided in marriage this doesn't surprise me. You can still find their advice in the marriage institute manual at least you could 10 years ago.

If an sp counseling a woman about to get married against some sexual practices is abuse.... Man we must be abused all the time with the filth that is promoted everywhere about sex....

[scottyg]

16 hours ago, Grunt said:

"One foot in" seems dumb.  Do you know the Book of Mormon is true?  Do you know the Church to be the restored Church of Christ?  Did you covenant with Heavenly Father?   Then honor those covenants and support your fellow Saints.  

Is the above not true?   Then why do you need the church?   I was teaching my children morals and values long before I knew what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was.  

I agree. The church is true, so stop feeling offended by some remarks from an imperfect man made over 20 years ago. The Law of Chastity was broken, and they wanted to make sure you both knew why, and that you were actually worthy to enter the temple. This isn't small stuff...they would be held responsible someday if they didn't do their due diligence. People have a hard time getting the right words out all the time in all walks of life. Don't let your faith be shaken by something like that. You have done more harm to your family by not being fully active in the church. It may seem blunt and harsh, but it's true. Do you have a testimony of the Gospel being restored in the latter-days, or were you and your wife just going through the motions as kids? If you are unsure, pray about it, and once you get your answer act on it. Too many people nowadays are afraid to act...just come back to church and receive all of the blessings that are available to you. No need to be bashful about it...nobody there cares about your past and why you have been inactive...they are too busy worrying about themselves and their own kids.

[Barrett Maximus]

22 hours ago, Fether said:

Why not? I know plenty of former and current partyers that are very happy and successful.

I spent over 20 years of my life in bars, jail, Smoking dope and playing in punk rock bands and I turned out just fine, in fact I teach primary 😜 I love my ward, they've been nothing but loving and accepting of me and my tattooed arms

[zil]

2 hours ago, Barrett Maximus said:

me and my tattooed arms

[mordorbund]

23 minutes ago, zil said:

 

Just like a priest of Ammon.

[zil]

Am I the only one who thinks of the Hokey Pokey every time this thread shows up in the "unread" list?

Edited November 30, 2018 by zil

[Traveler]

In all my experience with church leadership - I have never encountered anyone that has done a poor enough job for me to what to replace them.

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

This thread got me thinking. When caught in his latest act of hedonism, someone one said to the brilliant writer, Evelyn Waugh, "How can you call yourself a Catholic?!" His response, "Yes, just think how horrid I'd be if I wasn't Catholic."

Same thing here.

[wenglund]

This "one foot in" question reminds me of an experience on my mission in which a struggling member was paying a televangelist to pray her deceased husband out of purgatory. She would send money and would get a response back that certain body parts were now out of purgatory.  This continued until only one leg was left in. I asked the good sister to ask the televangelist which leg was left. She was puzzled and wanted to know why. I reminded her that if it was his left leg still left in,  it wasn't a problem because it was a wooden leg for most of her husbands life., and wouldn't be a problem left behind  She laughed, and sent no more money.

The relevant point being, while God request we give all our hearts and minds and souls, I believe he will accept one foot or even a big toe if that is as much as one is capable of giving at this point.--and this with the understanding that, as with much of life, we tend to get back as much as we give  (the Parable of the Talents).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

This thread got me thinking. When caught in his latest act of hedonism, someone one said to the brilliant writer, Evelyn Waugh, "How can you call yourself a Catholic?!" His response, "Yes, just think how horrid I'd be if I wasn't Catholic."

Same thing here.

I actually said that to a friend of mine about  myself.

I was "the good boy of the office."  And my co-worker had a reputation for being "the bad boy of the office."  But we really got along well.  We were good friends.  Someone asked me why/how this was so.

I said,"Because if I weren't a Mormon, I know that I'd probably be worse than he is."

"Well, maybe as bad, but worse?"

"Yes.  Believe me.  Worse."

That really made them raise their eyebrows about me.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, zil said:

Am I the only one who thinks of the Hokey Pokey ever time this thread shows up in the "unread" list?

Yes, just you.  You're weird like that.

[NeuroTypical]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

22 hours ago, zil said:

Am I the only one who thinks of the Hokey Pokey ever time this thread shows up in the "unread" list?

Yes, just you.  You're weird like that.

No, not just you.

[let’s roll]

On 11/27/2018 at 9:39 AM, JustCurious said:

Thank you all.  

To address a couple points made in response to my initial posting - One thing I want to make absolutely clear - We are not at all, nor ever have been in the mindset of "poor me, these members are just unaccepting of us wherever we go".  As noted in the one ignorant response above "someone with a track record of having one bad experience after another, with folks in different locations", essentially saying the problem is only with me, not the members engaged in the shunning.  I don't think that many members realize that there is absolutely most I definitely a culture within the church that shuns the "one foot in" members.  I'm not looking to play the victim.  We did far far more of the reaching out to others.  In a previous ward we were a limited "one foot in" family, and the vast majority of the members, including most of those we tried befriending were terribly shunning.  There were a few truly good people that didn't judge us by only our testimonies.  I could list solid examples of the most key people in the ward, but needless to say, we were shunned entirely based on our one foot in position.  In our new area, it is a much smaller ward/branch, and the members do seem pretty nice.  However, I can't drag my wife or kids there now after the previous experiences.  

But to many of the points made above, they are very valid.  Why are we interested in going if we don't have a testimony?  I do know there are many active church goers that go for the social life.  If it were only a social life thing, yeah, there are other churches or groups, etc.  Part of my thinking was morals.  I don't want my kids getting into the crazy drinking, party scene, etc that seem to be somewhat acceptable in most places.  If we were accepted for having no testimony in the wards, maybe that would have been a good place, but I think many of you are right - no need to devote my life to discipleship if that's what it takes to not be shunned.  

Please take this as a sincere, and not a cynical, question.  What makes you believe people in the Ward characterize you in the same way as you characterize yourself—as a “one foot in” family.  

How do you know you’re thought of as anything but maybe new in the Ward?

Do you act in a way that you believe sets you apart?  Sporadic attendance?

Do you criticize the Church or its leaders?

Something else?

My experience has been that many members typically go out of their way to be friendly and welcoming to people who attend infrequently.

[Vort]

51 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

No, not just you.

The Hokey-Pokey Sonnet! PotD!

[zil]

Sad news from the entertainment world. Larry LaPrise, who wrote the song and dance classic 'The Hokey Pokey' is dead at 93. His funeral went off with only one hitch, while transferring Larry to his coffin, they put his left leg in, and that's when the trouble began.