Does the Transgender Fish Kobudai Challenge What We Know About Gender?

[clbent04]

Does the transgender fish Kobudai challenge what we know about gender?  The Church's position is, "Our gender was established before we were born into mortality and is an essential characteristic of our eternal identity."  Does the same belief apply to all living things?

https://www.lds.org/manual/the-eternal-family-teacher-manual/lesson-8-gender-and-eternal-identity?lang=eng

"In the first episode of Blue Planet II we met the Kobudai – the Asian sheepshead wrasse - that was introduced as a female, behaved like a female and looked like a female. And then, as we watched she slowly but surely morphed into a male – displayed male behaviours and developed male characteristics. It may seem strange but in fact it's common among fish. Known as sequential hermaphrodism, sex change is a common and usual adaptive part of the life cycle. It is documented in at least 27 families of fish, spread across nine orders and displays three patterns: changing from female to male, known as protogyny; changing from male to female, known as protandry; and serial bidirectional sex change. All three types of sex change occurs across the teleost tree of life, which suggest that it has evolved multiple times – but why?"

"The biological processes and adaptive advantages of sex change has fascinated scientists for decades and the ecological and evolutionary contexts in which it occurs is now quite well studied and understood. The dominant theory as to why it occurs is known as the size advantage model. According to this model, changing sex is adaptive if your reproductive value (the number of offspring you can produce) is greater when you are a female when small, but a male when you are older and hence larger (as in the Kobudai) or vice versa. So by changing sex, lifetime reproductive success is maximized (the combined number of offspring you produce as a female and then a male or the other way round). Whether or not a species in protandrous or protogynous depends on their mating system and social structure. Protogyny – changing from a female to a male – is more common in fish than protandry because many fish have a mating system where large males, because of their superior competitive ability (in fights and contests with smaller males), are able to monopolize females and prevent smaller males from mating with them. Under these circumstances, reproducing initially as a female when small and then changing sex and becoming a male when large is the best strategy in order to maximize the number of offspring you leave in the next generation."

 https://www.open.edu/openlearn/science-maths-technology/biology/why-do-some-fish-change-sex

Edited January 18, 2019 by clbent04

[The Folk Prophet]

59 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Does the same belief apply to all living things?

Obviously not.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Does the transgender fish Kobudai challenge what we know about gender?  The Church's position is, "Our gender was established before we were born into mortality and is an essential characteristic of our eternal identity."  Does the same belief apply to all living things?

Of course not.  This statement is about humans specifically.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Does the transgender fish Kobudai challenge what we know about gender?  ...  Does the same belief apply to all living things?

No.  And no.

[clbent04]

14 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Of course not.  This statement is about humans specifically.  

I haven't read anywhere that says this statement only applies to humans.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Does the transgender fish Kobudai challenge what we know about gender? 

What do we know about gender?  One thing we know is that the female gender requires male gender to reproduce.  Likewise the male gender requires the female gender to maintain and propagate its species. 

Something we should know is that in the human species - regardless of whatever physical changes someone born as a male or female can accomplish concerning gender by whatever means possible to appear to alter their gender or act like the other gender - it will not increase their probability of propagating more of the human species - rather it will likely result in no reproduction what-so-ever.

 

The Traveler

Edited January 18, 2019 by Traveler

[clbent04]

29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Obviously not.

Obviously? As in, the statement from the Church explicitly says, "this statement only applies to human beings"?  Very obvious indeed.

Edited January 18, 2019 by clbent04

[anatess2]

@clbent04, let me introduce you to this word:  anthropomorphism

 

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Obviously? As in, the statement from the Church explicitly says, "this statement only applies to human beings"?  Very obvious indeed.

Omygoodnessgraciousbatman.  So... because a female copperhead snake can reproduce without a male then Binary Gender does not apply to Human Beings.

Ahhh... there is one thing we can all agree on.  Human Beings have this unique capacity to voluntarily twist their reasoning brains into pretzels.

Edited January 18, 2019 by anatess2

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Omygoodnessgraciousbatman.  So... because a female copperhead snake can reproduce without a male then Gender does not apply to Human Beings.

Ahhh... there is one thing we can all agree on.  Human Beings have this unique capacity to voluntarily twist their reasoning brains into pretzels.

The mental gymnastics some people participate in to question faith and prophets is mindboggling.

[clbent04]

Do dogs not have gender as part of their eternal identity? My male dog and female dogs aren't necessarily eternally designated as such genders?

[clbent04]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

The mental gymnastics some people participate in to question faith and prophets is mindboggling.

Lol. And... he's back

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I haven't read anywhere that says this statement only applies to humans.

I haven't read anywhere that snails can't become gods.

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Do dogs not have gender as part of their eternal identity? My male dog and female dogs aren't necessarily eternally designated as such genders?

Dude, we're still even debating whether dogs are eternal... i mean shouldn't we first discuss whether all dogs get resurrected?  I mean Joseph Smith said he wants to be with his horse but will all horses be resurrected?  Will ants?  Mosquitoes?

In any case... HUMAN gender is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from animal gender.  You would know this if you spend 2 minutes thinking about your 6th grade Science teacher.  If he was worth his salt.

Edited January 18, 2019 by anatess2

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I haven't read anywhere that snails can't become gods.

If cockroaches are eternal somebody better assure me they go straight to outer darkness.

Edited January 18, 2019 by anatess2

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

Does the transgender fish Kobudai challenge what we know about gender?  The Church's position is, "Our gender was established before we were born into mortality and is an essential characteristic of our eternal identity."  Does the same belief apply to all living things?

Some critters reproduce asexually.  Some critters have both sets of genitals.  None of this has really been news for a hundred years or more.

Humans are God's children, inheritors of a divine birthright.  Critters, not so much.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

If cockroaches are eternal somebody better assure me they go straight to outer darkness.

No, that's only for mosquitoes.

[Grunt]

Just now, NeuroTypical said:

Some critters reproduce asexually.  Some critters have both sets of genitals.  None of this has really been news for a hundred years or more.

Humans are God's children, inheritors of a divine birthright.  Critters, not so much.

Created in His image with eternal gender.

[anatess2]

Just now, Carborendum said:

No, that's only for mosquitoes.

I'm in trouble.

[clbent04]

6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Dude, we're still even debating whether dogs are eternal... i mean shouldn't we first discuss whether all dogs get resurrected?  I mean Joseph Smith said he wants to be with his horse but will all horses be resurrected?  Will ants?  Mosquitoes?

In any case... HUMAN gender is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from animal gender.  You would know this if you spend 2 minutes thinking about your 6th grade Science teacher.  If he was worth his salt.

Easy, breezy, lemon squeezy. Little high-strung there, chieftess

[anatess2]

Just now, clbent04 said:

Easy, breezy, lemon squeezy. Little high-strung there, chieftess

Oh, you haven't seen nothin' yet.

 

@Vort, how'd ya like that double negative, huh?

[Tyme]

10 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Dude, we're still even debating whether dogs are eternal... i mean shouldn't we first discuss whether all dogs get resurrected?  I mean Joseph Smith said he wants to be with his horse but will all horses be resurrected?  Will ants?  Mosquitoes?

In any case... HUMAN gender is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from animal gender.  You would know this if you spend 2 minutes thinking about your 6th grade Science teacher.  If he was worth his salt.

She's got blood coming out of her eye balls. - Trump

[anatess2]

Just now, Tyme said:

She's got blood coming out of her eye balls. - Trump

Dude, why do me injustice like that?  I got blood coming out of my wherever!

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Oh, you haven't seen nothin' yet.

 

@Vort, how'd ya like that double negative, huh?

You misspelled "ain't".

[The Folk Prophet]

24 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Obviously? As in, the statement from the Church explicitly says, "this statement only applies to human beings"?  Very obvious indeed.

I don't believe there's a statement from the church that explicitly says that of any doctrine. So I guess it's not obvious that we shouldn't be sealing turkeys one to another in the temples. It's not obvious that we shouldn't be performing baptisms for squirrels. It's not obvious that we shouldn't be giving the priesthood to aardvarks. You're right. I must have been mistaken in what I mean by "obviously" because anything that hasn't been explicitly stated as incorrect may well be correct. It's obviously not obvious, obviously.

You know, now that you mention it, they didn't explicitly say that gender isn't eternal for trees either. Or rocks!

Wow. The mind explodes!

Obviously.