Liberty vs. Safety

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

Ben Franklin said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." And yet, the governors of the states are enforcing unconstitutional dictates and using the virus as the excuse. The snakes are showing their true colors. It is one thing to request people to stay home, it is another to order it. We need to support freedom, not dictators.

What say you? Should we allow governments to trample our Constitution just because they can???

 

[anatess2]

Capital N, Capital O. 

Gov deSantis got lots of flack for refusing to close the beaches.  I'm going to work that much harder to get him re-elected.

 

[Fether]

I don’t mind it. From what I understand, the whole purpose of all these extreme precautions are to shorten and elongate the “hump” of hospitalizations. That way we don’t end up having to refuse people in need of medical attention due to over crowding in hospitals.

This is easy for me to say cause I’m (compared to others) only barely effected by it. Even if a same statement was made in Utah, I still have a way to make the money I need.

Edited March 20, 2020 by Fether

[Grunt]

Any erosion of liberty is horrible.

[NeuroTypical]

I have never seen the contrast so transparently laid out between the two main ideologies in this country, than this morning in my twitter feed:

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

53 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Any erosion of liberty is horrible.

Once it is gone, it is gone.

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

16 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have never seen the contrast so transparently laid out between the two main ideologies in this country, than this morning in my twitter feed:

Dear Goodness, we can never elect another demoncrat. Never.

[NeuroTypical]

8 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

Any erosion of liberty is horrible.

Once it is gone, it is gone.

 

Or perhaps, getting it back is always harder than giving it up.

In other words, we can vote ourselves into Socialism, but we have to shoot our way out of it.

[Guest Scott]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have never seen the contrast so transparently laid out between the two main ideologies in this country, than this morning in my twitter feed:

Um, actually Trump did what Bernie was suggesting.  Only it will be $1200 rather than $2,000.

Also that's a cut and paste of cherry picked comments.  This was not an actually discussion between Trump and Bernie.

Edited March 20, 2020 by Scott

[MrShorty]

It seems to me that the question is not whether government should infringe on liberty to provide safety, but when and to what extent. My freedom to build my own house any way I see fit is infringed because of building codes and licensing requirements in the name of safety. My right to drive as fast as I want is infringed by speed limit laws in the name of safety. Mandatory vaccinations (discussed in another thread) infringe on my freedom to choose whether or not to get vaccinated in the name of safety and health.

I tend to agree with Ben on this one, but I don't think it is as black and white as might be suggested. It seems to me that it is less about whether or not we should cede liberty to government in exchange for safety, but when, how, to what extent, etc. should we cede those liberties and when do we as citizens need to retain those liberties.

[JohnsonJones]

I'm more liberal than many here as I would prefer a more centralized health system that is cheaper and easier for many to afford.  I also prefer ways to house and feed those who are less able to as well as many other things people consider socialism here (though it's more a social democracy than socialism as some would see it).

That said, I'm not completely on that front as I'm actually more of an independent than liberal (just liberal compared to the far right).

That said, I'm actually kind of bothered by this entire giving $1000 or $2000 to every citizen right now.  What is it's purpose? 

To me, it seems the purpose is to help curb a recession that is caused by the recent economic panics in the markets as well as the reduced spending of people as they stay more isolated to prevent the spread of the virus.

How then, exactly is giving this money to Americans going to help curb the virus OR help the recession overall?

If they are staying inside to try to avoid the virus's currently spreading, more money is not necessarily going to cause them to change this.  They are still going to stay inside, holed up and isolated.  Thus, giving them more money is not going to change this.

Giving them money doesn't cure them of their illness if they have it or prevent them from getting it.

In fact, I don't see what this does overall.  IT DOES aid those who have been laid off or lost their jobs due to this economic downturn...but the money is temporary.  It's not going to last them that long and with the reduced spending already the problems with lack of work is going to continue LOOONG after that money is spent.  It's a very temporary bandaid that has no long term solution to it.

In otherwords, in relation to the COVID going around as well as the economic downturn...I do not see it solving any problems.  I see it more as a distraction...something to have people focus their attention on because of greed rather than any real help.  It's flashing the left hand so they do not see what the right hand is doing.

That this is seen as the solution kind of alarms me.  I'm not against giving people money or monetary aid, especially if they are in need.  However, I do not see this current measure of actually doing anything to solve any of the problems we are currently facing in the US right now.

[Jane_Doe]

I don't see being asked to not spread disease (or potentially spread disease) by staying home as being an infringement on liberty at all.  And one of the purposes of the Executive branch of government is to act quickly in case of something comes up that requires quick action.  Doing so now (from my point of view) is actually a fairly good system working fairly good.  

[Guest Scott]

20 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

That said, I'm actually kind of bothered by this entire giving $1000 or $2000 to every citizen right now.  What is it's purpose? 

I don't know, but hopefully it is for people who are not working right now (there are many) to still be able to pay their bills and necessities.

I think you are right in that it isn't going to help the economy much because everyone is holed up.

My hours were cut in half (highway engineering) and my wife's were cut completely (restaurant).   80% of my son's coworkers got laid off yesterday.  He works at a laundry place

We're still ok.  A lot of people might not be.

That said though, I suspect the real reason is that it's supposed to be a morale booster.

PS, does anyone find it ironic that conservatives politicians are only conservative until a crisis hits and as soon as that happens, they are all liberals?

Edited March 20, 2020 by Scott

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Scott said:

PS, does anyone find it ironic that conservatives politicians are only conservative until a crisis hits and as soon as that happens, they are all liberals?

I don't think that is an accurate description of what's going on. Insofar as it's true, no, I don't think it's ironic at all. I think it's politicians acting like politicians. It turns my stomach, like a rotting animal corpse on the road, but it's par for this telestial course.

[Fether]

43 minutes ago, Scott said:

This was not an actually discussion between Trump and Bernie.

I dont think the poster was wanting to make it look that way. Only pointing out the ideological differences.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have never seen the contrast so transparently laid out between the two main ideologies in this country, than this morning in my twitter feed:

Isn’t a recession caused by people thinking there is a recession (or soon to be one)?

[NeuroTypical]

40 minutes ago, Scott said:

Also that's a cut and paste of cherry picked comments.  This was not an actually discussion between Trump and Bernie.

Correct.  As I mentioned, it showed up in my twitter feed this morning.  Two tweets from two different tweeters.  Not a discussion.  As I said, a contrast so transparently laid out between the two main ideologies in this country.  

1 minute ago, Vort said:

PS, does anyone find it ironic that conservatives politicians are only conservative until a crisis hits and as soon as that happens, they are all liberals?

Something pointed out in the last Trump press conference: The Federal government urges, issues guidelines, spreads information, activates FEMA to support state efforts.  State Governors get to run their states, and some governors are issuing edicts and giving orders that impact residents of their individual states. 

Very much what the signers of the Constitution had in mind.  Very much an expression of conservative values. 

 

[Guest Scott]

3 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Something pointed out in the last Trump press conference: The Federal government urges, issues guidelines, spreads information, activates FEMA to support state efforts.  State Governors get to run their states, and some governors are issuing edicts and giving orders that impact residents of their individual states. 

Very much what the signers of the Constitution had in mind.  Very much an expression of conservative values. 

And the government checks, government mandated sick pay, free medical checks, etc.?

Edited March 20, 2020 by Scott

[NeuroTypical]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

Isn’t a recession caused by people thinking there is a recession (or soon to be one)?

A recession is two quarters of not-positive growth.  It's a normal part of the economic cycle, we can't all grow all the time.

But yeah, one way to have one, is to have everyone believing one is coming.  In normal times, belief is enough to impact decisions, and everyone can cautiously behave ourselves into one.  But another thing that causes recession, is all the stuff happening right now.  The stuff we're doing now, is to kill covid quickly, so we can get back to the powerfully strong economy.

[NeuroTypical]

Just now, Scott said:

And the government checks, mandated sick, pay, etc.?

I'm utterly uncomfortable with some of that stuff.  And I am very worried about the long-term impact.  So yeah, I have to begrudgingly admit I see some of your overall point happening.  (Saying this through grinding teeth, not mad at you, but absolutely worried about some of this stuff.)

[Guest Scott]

13 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't think that is an accurate description of what's going on. 

I think it is, but I'm talking about more than Trump.

Every time a crisis hits (not just this time), it seems to me that all of the sudden conservative politicians are liberal (or at least embrace liberal policies).

Edited March 20, 2020 by Scott

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, Scott said:

And the government checks, government mandated sick pay, free medical checks, etc.?

Is neither liberal nor conservative.. it's authoritarian.  Unfortunately, the go-to position of all politicians regardless of their ideology in times of crisis.  People have this strange reaction of looking to the government to save them in times of crisis.  Government thinks it's their job to be the savior because they fear the people will hold it against them in the next election.  This has nothing to do with ideology but job security.

And I'm not sure what Trump's play is - it is the same Keynesian paradigm as Bush/Obama bail-outs except instead of it bailing out banks and industries, it's bailing out individuals.  Regardless of who is getting bailed out, it's still a drastic movement of money out of the public coffers injected into private coffers.  This is well and good... if the Government is not trillions of dollars in the hole.  Trump should know this.  This is one of my concerns with the Trump instinct.  He is not debt-averse.  He has a history of putting himself in so much debt as to wrest the power of the banks such that they will work hard to help Trump succeed so as not to lose their investment.  I just can't logically see how that will work when it comes to the US Treasury.

[NeuroTypical]

The hand-waving emotional mantra of "Government has to do something!" is business as usual for liberal folk.

A conservative's business as usual is "Government needs to not do anything and get the heck out of the way".  Notable exceptions would be, well, global pandemics that threaten to overwhelm our country's healthcare system and leave people dying in hallways, unless something happens.

 

Again, liberals make those emotional sensationalistic claims about stuff like welfare reform, taxes, appointing judges, just about everything.  I remember Newt Gengritch's Contract With America, loud screaming about how we'd see "bodies stacked up like cordwood" because of the block grant program.  That's emotional sensationalism.  That's trying to manipulate the emotions of people to be against things.  Shame on any politician who does that, and liberals have owned the trophy of that sort of nonsense for lots of decades.  Conservatives (or, more accurately, politicians who wish to attract the conservative vote) come in a distant second. 

Do you see the difference between yelling about pain and death to get your way, and yelling about pain and death because sound science and watching Italy tells us it's coming?

 

Edited March 20, 2020 by NeuroTypical

[Guest Scott]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

And I'm not sure what Trump's play is - it is the same Keynesian paradigm as Bush/Obama bail-outs except instead of it bailing out banks and industries, it's bailing out individuals. 

Trump is planning on bailing out industries.

Thus far he is planning on a $50 billion for the airlines and $450 billion for other businesses.

[Vort]

31 minutes ago, Scott said:

I think it is, but I'm talking about more than Trump.

Every time a crisis hits (not just this time), it seems to me that all of the sudden conservative politicians are liberal (or at least embrace liberal policies).

We the people¹ of the United States², in order to:

• Form a more perfect union
• Establish justice
• Ensure domestic tranquililty
• Provide for the common defense
• Promote the general welfare, and
• Secure the blessings of liberty to
  • Ourselves and
  • Our posterity

Do ordain and establish this constitution for the United States of America.

Seems like government reaction to a pandemic would fit at least #3, #5, and #6a and #6b above, and arguably #4 and even #1. So no, I don't think a governmental pandemic response is anti-conservative, certainly not where "conservative" means "wants appropriate government".

(Please note that this doesn't mean I approve of all being done. I think my previous posts have made it clear I do not. But I don't think this is primarily a liberal vs. conservative issue, at least not the part about having a governmental response.)

¹It only just right this Minute occurred to me that the Reason that various seemingly random Words were capitalized in the original Preamble to the Constitution was that they were capitalizing the Nouns, just like modern German still does today³.

²Does anyone else of around my generation hear the Schoolhouse Rock version of the preamble when quoting or thinking about it?

³Today looks and sounds and smells like a noun. Why, oh why, is it an adverb?

Edited March 20, 2020 by Vort