gclayjr

What should we do to "Save the Constitution" that is definitely hanging by a thread?

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I am 69 years old, and over the years as things have happened to hurt our freedoms, I have wondered if we are living through when the Constitution would "hang by a thread" . I have always wondered what we as members of the church or Priesthood holders we should do to "save" the constitution when it does "hang by a thread"?

With this obviously corrupt election and the fact that while many brave Americans have come forward to demonstrate this,  nobody in charge is even willing to let the evidence be heard. I am also aware that there are many good Christians who have been praying to God to help save this country from a corrupt theft of our rights and to save the Constitution. With the recent rejection by the Supreme Court of the Texas case, virtually all visible paths to even giving a fair hearing to the evidence seems to have disappeared.

I don't see any "normal" path out of this. It is not that important whether BIden or Trump becomes president. What is important is whether our election system becomes so corrupt that the people can never vote out the corrupt or vote in someone who is reasonably honest and believes in letting people live a Christian life.

We have often been counselled to be loving and peaceful. and the 12th Article of faith indicates that we should submit even to corrupt evil totalitarian governments. So if my premise is  correct,  what is it that we as true believers in Jesus Christ, his restored Gospel, and the Constitution supposed to do to Save it?

I have never been able to find anything other than to stand for the truth and proclaim it. But I don't see how it applies here.

I have a true testimony of Jesus Christ and his restored Church, and know that in the end he will deliver us from evil. That doesn't mean that we may not have to live under oppression for awhile, like the people of Alma did, or the Citizens of Venezuela have been doing for over 20 years. I will willingly, if not necessarily joyfully,  submit to God's will. 

However what is that? What are our duties as members of the Church to help "Save the Constitution"?

 

I would love some insight into this.

Thank you,

 

George Clay

 

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I personally don’t believe we will save the constitution from falling being lost in the USA. More likely we will maintain the principles of the constitution within our church. If the is ever falls into disarray, the church will be here to uphold what principles we can.

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Despite how wonderful and inspired it is, the US Constitution is the means to an end, not the end itself. 
 

The ultimate end goal of mortality is to be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. Our ultimate priesthood duty is to get everyone else there, too. 
 

The Jaredites fell to wickedness. The Nephites and Lamanites fell to wickedness. Likewise, most of us are familiar with Moroni’s warning of secret combinations. But another warning that he offers is:

 

Ether 2:9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.


10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.


11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.


12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.

 

So, if you are asking what can be done to save our people and our liberty in this country, my answer is that we trust in God and keep His commandments. Likewise, we encourage everyone else to trust in God and keep His commandments. The further we stray from Him, the closer we are to being swept off. If we trust Him and keep His commandments, the promise is that we will prosper in the land. 

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13 minutes ago, Colirio said:

Despite how wonderful and inspired it is, the US Constitution is the means to an end, not the end itself. 
 

The ultimate end goal of mortality is to be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. Our ultimate priesthood duty is to get everyone else there, too. 
 

The Jaredites fell to wickedness. The Nephites and Lamanites fell to wickedness. Likewise, most of us are familiar with Moroni’s warning of secret combinations. But another warning that he offers is:

 

Ether 2:9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.


10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.


11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.


12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.

 

So, if you are asking what can be done to save our people and our liberty in this country, my answer is that we trust in God and keep His commandments. Likewise, we encourage everyone else to trust in God and keep His commandments. The further we stray from Him, the closer we are to being swept off. If we trust Him and keep His commandments, the promise is that we will prosper in the land. 

This is an excellent point, and the scriptures also point out something very interesting regarding when the nations are swept off.

Normally there is NO GOOD or BAD/EVIL defined sides...instead...BOTH sides are evil.  They are opposites in evil, but they represent evil in their own ways and devices.  It is a war that is spread around by bitter hatred by both sides to try to kill each other in totality.

As we look around in the political landscapes of the US (and many Western nations) today, I think one could see the seeds of these types of hatreds growing.  Much like it did among the Jaredites, as their hatreds and intrigues of evil increased, their desire for the blood of those they saw as enemies also increased.

One of the GREAT and DEFINING things about the Constitution was that it was an attempt to forge the union of different ideas and ideologies.  It was the groundwork to sponsor cooperation and unification between different people of different viewpoints.  The Constitution is a thing that understands that there are those with very different views and ideas, but that by working together people can cooperate to make something greater. 

The GOOD is not out to destroy the other parties, but to preserve the rights and freedoms that they have.  The Nephites while righteous never sought to destroy the Lamanites, only to preserve their lands, their families, and their freedoms.  They did not fight out of hatred, but out of love of family and freedom.  They did not instigate war, but only defended their right to exist.  They did not go to conquer, but to retain that which they had.  Eventually that Love sent the Sons of Mosiah to convert many to the Lord's gospel, and later, when the Lord visited the Americas, to convert the entire people to righteousness.  Good seeks to convert in love and teaching rather than to destroy or dominate.  Hate for their fellowmen has no place among the righteous (in my thoughts).

Today, there is far too much hatred in the United States between the so called Conservatives and so called Liberals.

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I think the brethren have been pretty clear about our duty in that we are to participate in the process and to stand up for what we believe and to do so civilly. We see the same thing in the Book of Mormon. We even read if a righteous chief judge giving up his place in the government to preach the gospel because the laws had become corrupt. To @Colirio point if we aren't a righteous people we shouldn't expect a righteous government. I've always believed in the statement that our system of government can only govern a largely righteous people. So while it can be very disheartening to see what's going on it really doesn't change what we should be doing. 

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The one danger I see in the United States now is the threat of sedition by those millions (possibly) of
people who believe in the conspiracy of voter fraud.  If Americans abide by the decision of the Supreme
Court then the Constitution has been preserved.

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Thank you for your replies. I know their is controversy over this, because of multiple sources. THe LDS church website says

Quote

“What did the Prophet Joseph say? When the Constitution shall be tottering we shall be the people to save it from the hand of the foe.” (Deseret News Weekly, January 19, 1870.)

On various occasions, Joseph Smith referred to the Constitution, the country, and destiny of the nation; and there is clear evidence that he anticipated future peril. Furthermore, he pronounced the prophecy at various times and places. Perhaps he himself interchanged the simile “on the brink of ruin,” “hang by a brittle thread,” “hang by a single hair,” etc., to describe the anticipated crisis. It is also clear that the redeemers or rescuers of the Constitution were to be either the Saints generally or priesthood officers specifically.

 I have often  felt a bit like laronius,  ... just be good citizens. However, I don't see how this would "save" the Constitution. 

Usually, when this topic comes up, it is usually focused on when, where,  and how the Constitution will hang by a thread, and what we are to do to save it never seems to get much clear discussion.

I am pleased to see conservative politicians, and non lds religious leaders call for prayers to God to save our Constitution and our country.  While I think this is wonderful, it seems to make it less clear to me what unique special thing we as priesthood holders and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints  should do to help save our Constitution.

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We call ourselves a Union but we are clearly not united.  That is going to cost us.

No matter how you slice it roughly half the country does not believe and in many cases actively belittles the other half (And it goes both ways so no matter which half you are on it happens by your side and to your side)

The way to save it would be to pull back from the other side is the enemy mindset that we have and are entrenching in.  Remembering that we are all Children of God and Calling upon him is a starting point for that.

As for Joseph Smith's prophecy I view it through the eyes of the events in the Book of Mormon being parallels to what we will have.  The Nephite nation broke up do to the secret combinations trying to gain power.  So I expect the USA to break up (this is not the same as saying I want it to).  Thus the prophecy would be about holding it together through the break up rather then preventing it.

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I believe this quote but I do not know how it is going to be fulfilled.  Likely the LORD's hand of judgment will come upon the modern day Gadianton robbers but we will likely also endure hard trials.  I keep praying everyday that the Bill of Rights and the Constitution will be preserved.

"Men may fail in this country, earthquakes may come, seas may heave beyond their bounds, there may be great drought, disaster, and hardship, but this nation, founded on principles laid down by men whom God raised up, will never fail. This is the cradle of humanity, where life on this earth began in the Garden of Eden. This is the place of the New Jerusalem. This is the place that the Lord said is favored above all other nations in all the world. This is the place where the Savior will come to His temple. This is the favored land in all the world. Yes, I repeat, men may fail, but this nation won’t fail. I have faith in America; you and I must have faith in America, if we understand the teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are living in a day when we must pay heed to these challenges. “I plead with you not to preach pessimism. Preach that this is the greatest country in all the world. This is the favored land. This is the land of our forefathers. It is the nation that will stand despite whatever trials or crises it may yet have to pass through." -- President Harold B. Lee, 1974 Ye are the Light of the World, pages 350-351

 

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I was also reading on another forum and a person said this and I mostly agree with it presently:

The sole purpose of the Supreme Court is to review, rule upon and enforce Constitutional issues, they have now neutered themselves and shown that they, and their rulings, are irrelevant and unenforceable. The corruption of our government is now fully and totally on display.

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I am surprised.!

Nobody seems to take the prophecy as written. Despite variations being repeated several times.  Even though the Church website says:

Quote

It is also clear that the redeemers or rescuers of the Constitution were to be either the Saints generally or priesthood officers specifically.

If I understand most people here believe that no Constitution will be saved, no country will be saved. Somehow this prophecy indicates that like the Jaredites and the Nephites, our government and will fall and that this prophecy is about 

Quote

Thus the prophecy would be about holding it together through the break up rather then preventing it.

Maybe I am at a disadvantage being an old guy with a degree in "Applied Statistics" from USU who worked for 40 years as a pretty hard core computer software developer in manufacturing. My mind has problem figuring out how you get from statement A to conclusion B.

Am I the only one who  thinks the actual answer is closer to the wording of the prophecy that seems to me to point to saving a Constitution which other of God's statements said was specifically inspired by him to bring to pass a government where his true Gospel could be restored in a unique country with unique freedoms that would allow this to happen?

Am I alone here?

 

George Clay

 

 

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I'm sorry, I find it hard to even follow some of the logic here. In my poor analytical mind I can't follow some of the thoughts here. To my simple mind only the following is possible:

 

1) There was nothing serious wrong about this election and therefor no threat to the constitution or our liberties. This was proposed by Romas8. While I  strongly disagree with it, I am not looking for a political discussion so I hope we can simply agree to disagree

2) There was serious corruption in this election which may have caused the person who was elected president to not be the true choice of the people, but that various events and things in our society will make it not so bad that we cannot have a reasonably fair election in the future. Something similar, though not nearly to the scale of this election, occurred in the 1960 election of Kennedy. .. not a constitutional crises

3) There was serious corruption in the election, Societal checks and balances have not nor will work, and the constitution and the "rule of law" have been seriously damaged, and we will not be able to vote in a fair election in the future. Many more of our freedoms will be taken from us and it will be harder to live a good Christian life ... but it still doesn't rise to the level of the Constitution "Hanging by a Thread" ... A serious break to the Constitution, but not requiring the Priesthood of God to save ... so just pray to God, and live through the persecution like the people of Alma

4) There was serious corruption in the election and the government, This election has broken that last thread, and we will need to save it. This may take a while and there may be a time delay between this breakage, and whatever is done by God via his Priesthood may not happen immediately.

 

Nothing else makes sense to me.

And while only scenario 4 would trigger Joseph Smith's prophecy, it still should be worth while to contemplate what we should be prepared to do at some future time when this prophecy does come to pass.

 

George

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, gclayjr said:

If I understand most people here believe that no Constitution will be saved, no country will be saved. Somehow this prophecy indicates that like the Jaredites and the Nephites, our government and will fall and that this prophecy is about

First you need to stop conflating the Constitution with the US government... While they are linked they are not the same thing.

The Constitution is a piece a paper with the outlines of a form of government written on it.  The most literal interpretation of the Prophecy in question, puts us in the plot of the movie National Treasure, with the Elders playing the role of Nicolas Cage.  I do not think anyone takes it that literal where we have to preserve the physical document.

The next most literal  interpretation is preserving the ideas and using it.  The United States does this (Or in theory it does anyways).  But the United States is not the Constitution it is simply an implementation of it.  Governments require the consent of the Governed (Or massive overwhelming might).  It seems that in the country less and less people are willing to be ruled as Outlined in the Constitution.  But rather be ruled by their own sense of outrage.  This will lead to the destruction of the USA if left unchecked.

There is no prophecy the the Elders of the Church will save the US Goverment (Though many falsely assume otherwise).  Luckily one can save the Constitution from the destruction of the US Goverment. by simply choosing to create and live in a group abiding by its principles.  

Now you could think that the Elders of the Church will save both the Constitution and the Goverment.  That is your right but then you are adding to the prophecy your assumption and not something explicitly stated.  That means you would need to explain your addition and why it is in harmony

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estradling75,

 

I must admit this is the first time I've seen this interpretation of the prophecy. I guess under your theory, the American Civil war was no Constitutional Crises, because if the South had won, we would have 1 country still living under the constitution and another one living under another form of government.  OK, While I don't agree, I do understand,. However, this still doesn't answer the question as to what we should be prepared to do as members of the Church of Jesus Christ and holders of the priesthood in order to fulfill this prophecy.

 

George

 

Thought Question: If the South had won and institutionalized the ability to "quit" the union any time we want to, would we be 2 nations today or maybe 50 or more and which one would be The promised land under which the continuation of the restoration of the gospel in this last dispensation might be centered?

 

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Website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day-Saints

God’s Hand in the Founding of America (churchofjesuschrist.org)

 

Brigham Young Quote in it

Quote

First from Brigham Young, second president of the Church: “Will the Constitution be destroyed? No: it will be held inviolate by this people; and, as Joseph Smith said, ‘The time will come when the destiny of this nation will hang upon a single thread. At that critical juncture, this people will step forth and save it from the threatened destruction.’ It will be so.” (Journal of Discourses, 7:15.)

 

and

 

Quote

Now we must deal with America’s future. The land must continue to remain strong and great and good. It is destined to be the major supplier of human and financial resources, to build the kingdom of God here in the whole world, and to prepare the world for the return of the Lord and Savior. The adversary knows all too well that a weak America will literally stop this building process and thwart the work of God.

  I don't think that God thinks of America and the Constitution as 2 separate distinct unrelated things

 

George Clay

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2 hours ago, gclayjr said:

1) There was nothing serious wrong about this election and therefor no threat to the constitution or our liberties. This was proposed by Romas8. While I  strongly disagree with it, I am not looking for a political discussion so I hope we can simply agree to disagree

2) There was serious corruption in this election which may have caused the person who was elected president to not be the true choice of the people, but that various events and things in our society will make it not so bad that we cannot have a reasonably fair election in the future. Something similar, though not nearly to the scale of this election, occurred in the 1960 election of Kennedy. .. not a constitutional crises

3) There was serious corruption in the election, Societal checks and balances have not nor will work, and the constitution and the "rule of law" have been seriously damaged, and we will not be able to vote in a fair election in the future. Many more of our freedoms will be taken from us and it will be harder to live a good Christian life ... but it still doesn't rise to the level of the Constitution "Hanging by a Thread" ... A serious break to the Constitution, but not requiring the Priesthood of God to save ... so just pray to God, and live through the persecution like the people of Alma

4) There was serious corruption in the election and the government, This election has broken that last thread, and we will need to save it. This may take a while and there may be a time delay between this breakage, and whatever is done by God via his Priesthood may not happen immediately.

I think you are putting too much weight on ONE election here.  The corruption goes far longer and deeper than that.

I think there was fraud in the election, and I question some of the numbers, but I think both sides were involved with it in various ways.  It is plausible that the Democrats were more responsible in some ways, and their claims that there is no evidence of voter fraud I think is ignoring things (for example, I said even before the election that there was NO WAY Georgia would go to Biden).  That said, I think they can only tweak the numbers so much and so far, and even with that, Trump still won a considerable number of areas.  I think this type of fraud did NOT just appear in this election, but has been ongoing for some time.  The fact that more did not complain about it in 2000, or 20004, or 2008, or 2012, or 2016 and only NOW are shouting it out indicates that it is NOT as big a problem as some think it is now...otherwise they'd have shouted louder before.  It is only the individual that lost that they are following so intently that leads them in this direction, but the ironic thing about Trump that some have noticed is that when he accuses others of things, many times it is something he is also doing and thus has an easier time noticing. 

FAR more alarming to me is something that has been occuring in the US for a while, and far beyond just tweaking numbers for an election, is actually stealing our rights and our freedoms.  The Patriot Act, to me, is the single most devious act that tears down many of the freedoms we have been given under the Constitution.  It DOES grant us more security, it DOES grant us better abilities to track the enemies of the United States, but at what cost?  We have lost the ability to freely trust we can communicate securely with each other as citizens, we have lost the ability to be free from searches without a warrant (when they get material from your communications without a warrant...to ME that indicates a violation of the intent of the Bill of Rights, even if they legally can say they have not violated it).  I cannot understand why Americans simply accepted it and are not offended by such an act.  To me, this is what Americans should be protesting and should have been protesting for the past decade and more.

There are other laws that have come upon the books in the past decade that are of deep concerns which should also be alarming to Americans, but instead of concern I see general acceptance.  In comparison, though I think the events that indicate election fraud as troubling, there are far more troubling things that have been passed through the Halls of Congress that are having a far deeper impact upon our freedoms and protections as Citizens of the United States.

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39 minutes ago, gclayjr said:

Website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day-Saints

God’s Hand in the Founding of America (churchofjesuschrist.org)

 

Brigham Young Quote in it

 

and

 

  I don't think that God thinks of America and the Constitution as 2 separate distinct unrelated things

 

George Clay

A couple of points to ponder:

—Brigham Young tried to remove the Saints from the jurisdiction of the US government entirely—hence, the move to Utah.  So clearly he believed it possible to be loyal to US constitutional principles while rejecting the rule of the institutional US government.

—Let’s not forget that when the Civil War actually happened, the Saints didn’t go rushing out of their mountain homes to preserve the Union.  Young’s response was essentially, “pass the popcorn”.

—The jurisdiction of the US government in Joseph Smith’s day did not include any of the lands that would become part of the Mexican Cession, and only a tenuous (and disputed) claim on the Oregon territory.  If you want to take a strict interpretation of Joseph Smith’s (alleged) words, then you also have to conclude that the modern Saints on the Pacific coast, as well as in Nevada, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and parts of various other states, have no more obligation to “save” the government in Washington than do the Saints living in Paris or Manila or Mexico City.

The Washington government has been forcing us to tolerate baby murder for nearly fifty years.  In some significant moral respects, they are just as bad as Hitler.  We need not go out of our way to rebel against them—but neither do we need to risk our necks to prop them up once it becomes patently obvious that dissolution is impending.  

The Saints of God have bigger fish to fry.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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Season's Greetings @gclayjr and welcome to this forum.  Like you I am an old guy and have worked in software (my particular field was automation, robotics and artificial intelligence).  My filed of study in college was math with a minor in physics.  I am perhaps your senior.  I was 2 years active duty in the army during Vietnam but was spared combat for reasons outside my control.  I took a special leave from the army to serve a mission and while on a mission the army lost my 401 (records).  Also before I worked in automation and robotics I worked as a consultant (civilian) for the Defense Department.

We know from prophesy that there will be a great deal of trouble in the Last-days.  That the troubles will be great and that the hearts of men will fail.   We also know that perhaps the greatest indication (sign) of the Last-days has been the restoration of the Priesthood and the True and Living Church or Kingdom of G-d; which is all in preparation for the return of Christ.  We are also told by our prophets that despite all the troubles that will be part of the Last-days; that the righteous need not fear.  I believe that there are two thing that we must understand to overcome fear.  First is that the spiritual meaning of righteous is someone that covenants with G-d.  Thus the focus of the Saints is not in governments, laws or constitution; established through men but rather upon being loyal to the covenants of G-d given to mankind through the priesthood - at baptism and the temples of G-d.   

The second important point to understand is that in the Last -days the Saints will also suffer but will be sustained in their time of suffering and trouble by G-d through the covenants of the Saints.  It is my personal opinion that the Saints of G-d will be more focused (much more focused) on their covenants than on the constitution of the USA or any nation's Laws.  There are more Saints that are outside of the USA than there are here.   G-d will preserve his Saints even those that suffer death during the trouble times.

I am also convinced that our society is not yet as troubled as Saints have been in times past - but I believe it is coming - soon.  I believe that freedoms and liberties cannot exist without divine intervention and a people willing to live by covenants with G-d.  I believe we are coming to a time that those that do not desire to covenant with G-d will be removed from the society of Saints like the chaff  is separated from wheat.  This land was raised up that the cradle of the restoration might have a place of beginning.   I believe that those that choose not to align themselves with the Church will fall, either attempting to defend their freedoms or in aligning themselves with those that would betray freedoms for short term (not eternal) concessions.

It is interesting that our prophets are not aligning to any political movement.

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, gclayjr said:

estradling75,

 

I must admit this is the first time I've seen this interpretation of the prophecy. I guess under your theory, the American Civil war was no Constitutional Crises, because if the South had won, we would have 1 country still living under the constitution and another one living under another form of government.  OK, While I don't agree, I do understand,. However, this still doesn't answer the question as to what we should be prepared to do as members of the Church of Jesus Christ and holders of the priesthood in order to fulfill this prophecy.

 

 

No it was not.  It was a Crisis of the Goverment and for the US as a nation... But not the Constitution...  But as long as you conflate the two you will be confused.  Here is a pro tip... In the Constitution there is nothing dictating the number of States one must have in order to be Constitutional.  By default you need one, and more then one is assumed.  Beyond that there is no Constitutionally mandated requirement.

Here is another pro tip.  The Constitution say the States Choose the Electors for voting for President.  It is utterly silent on how they should choose them.  The States could choose to use Harvey the Wonder Hamster to choose their Electors and it would be Constitutional.  Therefore the cases challenging fraud of the election will fail if it is just about the method being Constitutional.  It has to be Did the States follow their own rules and laws?  If they did not what they did was Illegal... not Unconstitutional.  (Everything Unconstitutional is Illegal but not every thing Illegal is Unconstitutional.)

Your Brigham Young quote are about the Nation so those are solid.  But @Just_A_Guy Pointed out how Brigham Young through his actions understood the Saints and Priesthood need to step up.

As for the action you miss it because it does not fit with what you want to hear.  The Elders of the Church need to live by and support politicians who up hold the Constitution and work to remove those that do not.  This need will only grow as time goes on.

Edited by estradling75

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Traveler,

I think we have even more in common than you realize. I retired 6 years ago from Rockwell Automation. As a man who worked with Automation, Robotics,  and Artificial Intelligence, you must be very aware of my company particularly in regards to PLCs (Allen-Bradley). Although that was not my specialty. I was involved in MES (Manufacturing Execution Systems) or track and trace.

Not only that, I graduated from HS in 1969, and took a slow trip through college. I joined the Marines in 1974 as Viet Nam was ending, so I also missed that war.

I have struggled with this thread  not  to get into wild speculation about the time and place and nature of the prophesied time when the constitution would "Hang by a thread" I want to  and try and focus on discovering what I should do as a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and a holder of the Melquisedec priesthood do  to do God's will should this happen in my lifetime.

I find so much on describing the anticipated event and so little on our duty let alone how to prepare. I know many years ago Cloeon Skousen gave some lectures in regards to this, but I still have questions.

The chaos of this election and the potential for destruction, has reinforced my desire to seek out to know. What should I,  George Clay,  do should it happen now?

 

George Clay

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, gclayjr said:

Thought Question: If the South had won and institutionalized the ability to "quit" the union any time we want to, would we be 2 nations today or maybe 50 or more and which one would be The promised land under which the continuation of the restoration of the gospel in this last dispensation might be centered?

 

Probably the one that didn't build its economy around slavery, if I had to guess.

6 hours ago, Still_Small_Voice said:

I was also reading on another forum and a person said this and I mostly agree with it presently:

The sole purpose of the Supreme Court is to review, rule upon and enforce Constitutional issues, they have now neutered themselves and shown that they, and their rulings, are irrelevant and unenforceable. The corruption of our government is now fully and totally on display.

How have they neutered themselves? By correctly stating that Pennsylvania's election results/procedures are none of Texas' business? I'm sure there's a scenario under which they'd review the case. The blunt fact of the matter is that one state filing a grievance on the behalf of another state was dumb, especially coming from folks who love to wax poetic about states' rights and small government. 

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21 hours ago, gclayjr said:

However what is that? What are our duties as members of the Church to help "Save the Constitution"?

Become familiar with it, understand it, and vote and otherwise participate in your community. From the book, "“On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century” by Timothy Snyder I recommend the following principles:

1. Do not obey in advance. Most of the power of authoritarianism is freely given. In times like these, individuals think ahead about what a more repressive government will want, and then offer themselves without being asked. A citizen who adapts in this way is teaching power what it can do.

2. Defend institutions. It is institutions that help us to preserve decency. They need our help as well. Do not speak of “our institutions” unless you make them yours by acting on their behalf. Institutions do not protect themselves. So choose an institution you care about and take its side.

3. Beware the one-party state. The parties that remade states and suppressed rivals were not omnipotent from the start. They exploited a historic moment to make political life impossible for their opponents. So support the multi-party system and defend the rules of democratic elections.

4. Take responsibility for the face of the world. The symbols of today enable the reality of tomorrow. Notice the swastikas and other signs of hate. Do not look away, and do not get used to them. Remove them yourself and set an example for others to do so.

5. Remember professional ethics. When political leaders set a negative example, professional commitments to just practice become important. It is hard to subvert a rule-of-law state without lawyers, or to hold show trials without judges. Authoritarians need obedient civil servants, and concentration camp directors seek businessmen interested in cheap labor.

6. Be wary of paramilitaries. When the men with guns who have always claimed to be against the system start wearing uniforms and marching around with torches and pictures of a Leader, the end is nigh. When the pro-leader paramilitary and the official police and military intermingle, the end has come.

7. Be reflective if you must be armed. If you carry a weapon in public service, God bless you and keep you. But know that evils of the past involved policemen and soldiers finding themselves, one day, doing irregular things. Be ready to say no.

8. Stand out. Someone has to. It is easy to follow along. It can feel strange to do or say something different. But without that unease, there is no freedom. Remember Rosa Parks. The moment you set an example, the spell of the status quo is broken, and others will follow.

9. Be kind to our language. Avoid pronouncing the phrases everyone else does. Think up your own way of speaking, even if only to convey that thing you think everyone is saying. Make an effort to separate yourself from the internet. Read books.

10. Believe in truth. To abandon facts is to abandon freedom. If nothing is true, then no one can criticize power because there is no basis upon which to do so. If nothing is true, then all is spectacle. The biggest wallet pays for the most blinding lights.

11. Investigate. Figure things out for yourself. Spend more time with long articles. Subsidize investigative journalism by subscribing to print media. Realize that some of what is on the internet is there to harm you. Learn about sites that investigate propaganda campaigns (some of which come from abroad). Take responsibility for what you communicate to others.

12. Make eye contact and small talk. This is not just polite. It is part of being a citizen and a responsible member of society. It is also a way to stay in touch with your surroundings, break down social barriers, and understand whom you should and should not trust. If we enter a culture of denunciation, you will want to know the psychological landscape of your daily life.

13. Practice corporeal politics. Power wants your body softening in your chair and your emotions dissipating on the screen. Get outside. Put your body in unfamiliar places with unfamiliar people. Make new friends and march with them.

14. Establish a private life. Nastier rulers will use what they know about you to push you around. Scrub your computer of malware. Remember that email is skywriting.  Consider using alternative forms of the Internet, or simply using it less. Have personal exchanges in person. For the same reason, resolve any legal trouble.

15. Contribute to good causes. Be active in organizations, political or not, that express your own view of life. Pick a charity or two and set up autopay.

16. Learn from peers in other countries. Keep up your friendships abroad, or make new friends abroad. The present difficulties in the United States are an element of a larger trend.  And no country is going to find a solution by itself. Make sure you and your family have passports.

17. Listen for dangerous words. Be alert to the use of the words extremism and terrorism. Be alive to the fatal notions of emergency and exception. Be angry about the treacherous use of patriotic vocabulary.

18. Be calm when the unthinkable arrives. Modern tyranny is terror management. When the terrorist attack comes, remember that authoritarians exploit such events in order to consolidate power. Do not fall for it.

19. Be a patriot. Set a good example of what America means for the generations to come.

20. Be as courageous as you can. If none of us is prepared to die for freedom, then all of us will die under tyranny.

SOme may not like some of the author's examples, but in general I find thee to be very sound principles.

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CV75,

 

Pretty good ideas. I don't totally see how that would stop the destruction of the Constitution, but it is a pretty good foundation to build on, and I guess God will inform us if he needs us to do anything more.

 

Thank You

George Clay

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46 minutes ago, CV75 said:

6. Be wary of paramilitaries. When the men with guns who have always claimed to be against the system start wearing uniforms and marching around with torches and pictures of a Leader, the end is nigh. When the pro-leader paramilitary and the official police and military intermingle, the end has come.

This is the one that is keeping people like me up at night. A late 20th-Century philosopher once said, "Some of those who work forces are the same that burn crosses". There are small but very vocal and decently organized groups in our society who are preparing to literally go to war if Biden is sworn in next month. I'm not convinced that they will follow through, but if they do, will those sent to stop them actually make an honest attempt to do so?

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