Problems in the church?

[askandanswer]

In another thread it was suggested that there might be some problems in the church. Maybe there are, maybe there aren't, I don't know. But what I do know is that if there are problems in the church they're not my problems, they're God's problems, because its His church, and its for Him to solve them, not me. I just need to keep doing what I've always been doing, but do it more and better because I still see the occasional hint of an imperfection in myself (an almost imperceptible hint ). I feel no need to get engaged or involved in whatever problems there might be. They're not my problems. 

Edited January 18 by askandanswer

[Carborendum]

6 hours ago, askandanswer said:

In another thread it was suggested that there might be some problems in the church. Maybe there are, maybe there aren't, I don't know. But what I do know is that if there are problems in the church they're not my problems, they're God's problems, because its His church, and its for Him to solve them, not me. I just need to keep doing what I've always been doing, but do it more and better because I still see the occasional hint of an imperfection in myself (an almost imperceptible hint ). I feel no need to get engaged or involved in whatever problems there might be. They're not my problems. 

I think everyone knows there are problems here or there.  And none of us has a great view to determine how widespread it may or may not be.  But the reason that people want to point to a certain problem as being "systemic" is the foxhole scenario. 

I'll repeat an oft told tale about WWII.  If someone has a source for the validity of this tale, I'd like to know.  But regardless of the truth/fiction of the story, it is a valuable parable, if not a truly inspiring story.

There was a small group of allied soldiers in a foxhole.  They knew that most of their battalion had been lost to enemy fire.  They had very little ammunition left.  They were sore and tired.  Their communications were down.  Then they heard a loud speaker announce in a thick German accent:

"We have you surrounded.  Come out with your weapons down and your hands up!"

This group conferred for a bit and decided that they wouldn't give up.  They'd go down fighting.  As they jumped out of the foxhole, they were astounded to find an entire army of soldiers coming out of hundreds of foxholes as far as the eye could see.

Satan wants us to believe we're all alone.  But we're not.  And even if we were alone, we choose what we do.  We choose who we are.  We do not simply change who we are because of the actions of others.  That would be like blaming others for "making me mad."  We are responsible for controlling our feelings.  This is a trait that I'm afraid too few ever learn.  TBH, I still have a problem with it -- even with little offenses from others.  So, I'm not good at it myself.

It may not be fair.  It may not be just.  And it may even seem justified to believe otherwise, but no matter what others do, at the end of the day, we choose how we react.

We know who we are.  Even if we are thrown into the fire pits of Ammonihah, we live for the Lord and our Eternal destiny.

There was never anyone on Earth that was more alone than a simple carpenter who was left alone in an olive grove after He prayed for strength from His Father.  And He did what He knew was right regardless.

Edited January 18 by Carborendum

[zil2]

7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

In another thread it was suggested that there might be some problems in the church.

Problems in the Church (among the members) is not the same as problems with the Church (see next paragraph).  We members are imperfect.  We're all the Lord has to work with.  Satan has agents within the Church - wolves in sheep's clothing.  Perhaps some don't know or believe they've been recruited to Satan's ranks, yet do his work.  There are problems to be found everywhere in mortality.  Better to focus on doing what works of righteousness you can manage and yes, let the Lord figure out the rest: "Minister to 'em all, let God sort them out."  I can minister to a wool-clad wolf without harming God's kingdom just as much as I can minister to a lamb - assuming my ministering is true ministering, including both sharing the gospel and doing works of service and kindness.

If there are any problems with the Church (the organization, authority, priesthood, keys, covenants, ordinances, teachings, laws), I don't know them, and they are truly the Lord's to solve, not mine.  Really, my only problem is how to live my covenants.

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

Problems in the Church (among the members) is not the same as problems with the Church (see next paragraph). 

 

This is what people often fail to understand.

[NeuroTypical]

Quote

And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

- Title page of the Book of Mormon

*shrug*

I never fail to get amazed at the endless number of folks who get ticked off by a human or humans, and have that translate over into "I'm leaving the church".   So many people are here because they want a supportive friend group, or a good environment in which to raise kids, or want to feel belonging.  Those are all important human things, but if you're not here because you believe God wants you to be in this church, you're gonna get blown about when your other reasons for being here waver.

Whenever I hear the latest horrible thing that some Mormon did to someone else, I'm reminded of my wife's wise words: 

"I trust God to act like God, and man to act like man."

Probably some of the wisest words I know.

 

[mikbone]

My first Bishop swindled like 20K from my parents.

First Stake President left the Church

First Mission President was innactive.  I saw him on my first day in Osorno Chile.  Then @ a zone meeting 4 months later.  In his talk he basically berated us for 30 min about how bad our numbers were and then asked us each to give a testimony about what we can do to do better.  Everyone before me, mostly the Chileans, gave excuses and discussed plans to double their efforts.  I gave a forceful talk in broken Spanish about how our leadership was horrible or non-existent essentially.  The conference was cut a bit short after my words.  I was then banished to the remotest sector in the mission Porvinir! on the Island Tierra del Fuego.  Which I dearly loved.  My second mission president was much better.

When I read the scriptures I know and feel that they are inspired.  I get the same from listening to many talks during General Conference.  My Patriarchial Blessing reads like the Patriarch watched a movie of my entire life.  I just have do to lots of work in the Temple after my retirement. 

I love Joseph Smith dearly.  And I am well aware of the Kirtland Safety Society incident wherein he recommended that the membership buy into the bank and assured them that the bank would do well.  It failed - many members left the church over it.  I tried to buy one of the notes recently from e-bay but I couldn't because they are worth way more then their weight in gold today...

President Nelson's recommendation about vaccines reminded me of the Kirtland Safety Society.  I bet He gave the recommendation because many LDS were using the Church as a reason for requesting religious exemption.  

Living by the recommendations of the LDS Church (Jesus Christ) has brought me too many blessings to count.

My testimony is not fragile.  Its like Gorilla Glass or Sapphire.

My response to guys like Aaron Sherinian,

Edited January 18 by mikbone

[NeuroTypical]

I have a similar experience to @mikbone's.  Endless joy and love for scriptures and restoration history, endless blessings coming from accepting the truth claims and delving into the work, and a relatively small list of anecdotes where individual LDS, or maybe a small group or a ward, do stupid or horrible or even downright evil things.  The list can't hold a candle to the greatness of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Grunt]

10 hours ago, zil2 said:

Problems in the Church (among the members) is not the same as problems with the Church (see next paragraph). 

This.  I have a list of problems I have in the Church.   I don't have any with the Church.

[rcthompson88]

When my wife and I were first married, one of our first experiences going to Gospel Doctrine together in a new ward involved a discussion among some of the members about how evil the government was. An example to illustrate said evils was an anecdote someone had heard on Rush Limbaugh's show where he was upset because city ordinances were forcing him to turn outside lights off during the evening at his beach house because it would interfere with turtles that were digging their nests nearby. I could probably have come up with some more compelling reasons than that to make the point of evils in government, but the sea turtles seemed to be sufficient for this class.

It is easy to look at the vast and diverse membership of the church and find a plethora of reasons to be offended or upset, but to equate our imperfections as people to the Church being the corrupting entity is wrong and (in my opinion) often demonstrates someone revealing their determination to find fault in the Church or the Gospel no matter what.

It was in that same Gospel Doctrine class that the teacher gave a profound lesson that I have never forgotten. He talked about his life as a car mechanic, and the rough language and rough lifestyle he had with his fellow employees. He then took off his suit jacket to point out all of the arm and neck tattoos he had, documenting a life of questionable choices, though he did not elaborate. As he explained it though, when he put his suit jacket on, and came to church, he was acknowledging that even though he was not a perfect person and was not acting very Christ-like during the week, he was there anyway, dressed in his Sunday best and ready to try again in the upcoming week.

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, rcthompson88 said:

As he explained it though, when he put his suit jacket on, and came to church, he was acknowledging that even though he was not a perfect person and was not acting very Christ-like during the week, he was there anyway, dressed in his Sunday best and ready to try again in the upcoming week.

I love this.  Reminds me of one my favorite hymns.  Come thou fount of every blessing.

“Prone to wander, Lord I feel it
Prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart, oh take and seal it
Seal it for Thy courts above”

 

 

Edited January 19 by mikbone

[Traveler]

21 hours ago, mikbone said:

.....

I love Joseph Smith dearly.  And I am well aware of the Kirtland Safety Society incident wherein he recommended that the membership buy into the bank and assured them that the bank would do well.  It failed - many members left the church over it.  .......

Not just members.  When the Saints were forced from the United States into the western wilderness territories not one of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon went with them.  A few had died but the vast majority of the witnesses fell away -- Including the counselors of the first presidency and half of the quorum of the 12.

We often wonder why people fall away from the counsel of prophets.  It seems as though all the prophets have delt with criticism and apostasy.  In the councils of heaven even G-d the Father and Christ were criticized, and many fell away – including the one known as the Bearer of Light.

I have my own opinion about why – and it has nothing to do with the Church (Kingdom of G-d) or the Citizens (Member and Saints).  It is about Agency, personal desires and unwillingness to sacrifice.

 

The Traveler

[mrmarklin]

Traveler,

While not in the original group, two Witnesses came back:  Namely, Oliver Cowdery and  

Martin Harris.

[mrmarklin]

On 1/18/2024 at 12:03 AM, askandanswer said:

In another thread it was suggested that there might be some problems in the church. Maybe there are, maybe there aren't, I don't know. But what I do know is that if there are problems in the church they're not my problems, they're God's problems, because its His church, and its for Him to solve them, not me. I just need to keep doing what I've always been doing, but do it more and better because I still see the occasional hint of an imperfection in myself (an almost imperceptible hint ). I feel no need to get engaged or involved in whatever problems there might be. They're not my problems. 

Of course the Church has problems.  Who doesn't?  The Church has millions of members, and its doctrines try to help solve their problems.

In many senses Life is about problem solving on a daily basis.    How am I going to afford to repair my car that left me stranded on a busy freeway?  How am I going to deal with the teacher that treats my child unfairly?  I could go on and on, but you get the point.

Don't worry, the Lord has called on people to solve these "problems" whatever they are.

[ZealoulyStriving]

After years of study and meditation (which recently I had several years to do) I finally realized it's about authority and the temple. When Israel's priests weren't behaving well, where could the people take their sacrifices? They still had to take them to the same priests at the same temple. So, using that scriptural precedent - even IF the Church is having issues, your access to eternal temple covenants remains with the authorities of the Church.

ZealouslyStriving (Mosiah 27:35)

 

[Maverick]

My observation is that there are both problems in the church and with the church. But I firmly believe that in spite of the problems, that this is still the Lord’s church and that the brethren still hold the keys of the kingdom. 

[ZealoulyStriving]

7 hours ago, Maverick said:

My observation is that there are both problems in the church and with the church. But I firmly believe that in spite of the problems, that this is still the Lord’s church and that the brethren still hold the keys of the kingdom. 

When the Temple priests in ancient Israel were in error the people still had to take their sacrifices to them at the Temple.

That is a pattern.

Even *if* the general leadership is in error, they have the keys of the kingdom and are the gatekeepers of the House of the Lord. Our job is to stay recommend worthy and redeem our dead- the Lord will deal with His leaders *if* necessary.

Don't be a latter-day Uzzah.

[Traveler]

On 1/20/2024 at 9:25 PM, mrmarklin said:

Traveler,

While not in the original group, two Witnesses came back:  Namely, Oliver Cowdery and  

Martin Harris.

A note - if Oliver and Martin had not fallen and left the saints then it would have been Oliver first and Martin next that would have been the prophet to take the Saints west (like untio Moses) and not Brigham Young.  It was a benefit to both them and the Church that they repented and returned but the benefit would have been greater to both them and the Church had they remained loyal.  The lesson is that when we sin - there are blessings that are forever lost.  When we repent there are blessings that are given.  Sometimes the blessings that are given are similar to those that are lost but they can never be the same blessings that were lost.  The one example we have of someone that never sined and never lost a blessing is Christ.  There are many examples of great men (or women) that sined and repented and their lost blessings were forever lost (like King David, Oliver Cowdery and others).

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

In my youth I had a personal relationship with Apostle Hugh B. Brown.  It has always been my nature to seek out and ask the most difficult questions – at least the questions I considered the most difficult to me.  Like some that have posted I was aware of leader that were obviously in error.  And so I asked Apostle Brown the question – Do we still sustain our bishop even if we know absolutely that they are wrong?  This answer has stuck with me for decades.  Brother Brown looked me squarely in the eyes and said, “You sustain your bishop, especially if he is wrong because he will need your support more then than at any other time.”

Perhaps we do not understand what it means to sustain (support).  There are two parts.  One is to be agreeable, to help, to love, to honor and respect.  The other is like unto the servants of Elijah that held up his arms when he was weak.  When our leaders (or fellow members) are weak or failing – we hold them and their mission and purpose up.  This second part is known in the covenant to not speak evil of the L-rd’s anointed.

My friends @mrmarklin , @ZealoulyStriving  , @Maverick and other Saints of G-d:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not just the L-rd’s Church.  The Church also belongs to the Saints of G-d and is why the Saints are included in the name.  I would suggest that if anyone is aware of anyone or anything that is a problem in the Church that they humbly pray to G-d concerning that problem and inquire what it is that they can do (or sacrifice) to assist G-d in his mitigation of the problem.  As I have done this myself  - almost always in such things, the first thing I am commanded to do is to repent.

 

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

The notion of being "in error" has always interested me.  We're humans for pete's sake.  Being occasionally wrong is part of our mortal probation.  God does not take the humanity of His prophets/seers/revelators away, just because they get called to the work.  From what I can tell, the brethren have spent decades taking great care to make sure their opinions are presented as opinions, and their prophetic declarations are presented as prophetic declarations.  And even taking that into account, I've done better aligning with the brethren's opinions than I have being out of alignment with them.

 

Edited April 5 by NeuroTypical

[ZealoulyStriving]

3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

In my youth I had a personal relationship with Apostle Hugh B. Brown.  It has always been my nature to seek out and ask the most difficult questions – at least the questions I considered the most difficult to me.  Like some that have posted I was aware of leader that were obviously in error.  And so I asked Apostle Brown the question – Do we still sustain our bishop even if we know absolutely that they are wrong?  This answer has stuck with me for decades.  Brother Brown looked me squarely in the eyes and said, “You sustain your bishop, especially if he is wrong because he will need your support more then than at any other time.”

Perhaps we do not understand what it means to sustain (support).  There are two parts.  One is to be agreeable, to help, to love, to honor and respect.  The other is like unto the servants of Elijah that held up his arms when he was weak.  When our leaders (or fellow members) are weak or failing – we hold them and their mission and purpose up.  This second part is known in the covenant to not speak evil of the L-rd’s anointed.

My friends @mrmarklin , @ZealoulyStriving  , @Maverick and other Saints of G-d:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not just the L-rd’s Church.  The Church also belongs to the Saints of G-d and is why the Saints are included in the name.  I would suggest that if anyone is aware of anyone or anything that is a problem in the Church that they humbly pray to G-d concerning that problem and inquire what it is that they can do (or sacrifice) to assist G-d in his mitigation of the problem.  As I have done this myself  - almost always in such things, the first thing I am commanded to do is to repent.

 

The Traveler

Agreed. Which is why I appreciate the work of "Thoughtful Faith", Greg at "CWIC Media", and Hannah at "The Joseph Smith Foundation" (among others).

[Maverick]

11 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

When the Temple priests in ancient Israel were in error the people still had to take their sacrifices to them at the Temple.

That is a pattern.

Even *if* the general leadership is in error, they have the keys of the kingdom and are the gatekeepers of the House of the Lord. 

Agreed. Such was also the case with the leaders of Jews in the days of Jesus Christ and the years prior to that. 

11 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

the Lord will deal with His leaders *if* necessary.

Agreed. 

12 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

Don't be a latter-day Uzzah.

I agree here as well. And it’s not like there’s anything any of us lay members could do to correct the course of the church, even if we wanted to. 

[Maverick]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

In my youth I had a personal relationship with Apostle Hugh B. Brown.  It has always been my nature to seek out and ask the most difficult questions – at least the questions I considered the most difficult to me.  Like some that have posted I was aware of leader that were obviously in error.  And so I asked Apostle Brown the question – Do we still sustain our bishop even if we know absolutely that they are wrong?  This answer has stuck with me for decades.  Brother Brown looked me squarely in the eyes and said, “You sustain your bishop, especially if he is wrong because he will need your support more then than at any other time.”

Perhaps we do not understand what it means to sustain (support).  There are two parts.  One is to be agreeable, to help, to love, to honor and respect.  The other is like unto the servants of Elijah that held up his arms when he was weak.  When our leaders (or fellow members) are weak or failing – we hold them and their mission and purpose up.  This second part is known in the covenant to not speak evil of the L-rd’s anointed.

My friends @mrmarklin , @ZealoulyStriving  , @Maverick and other Saints of G-d:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not just the L-rd’s Church.  The Church also belongs to the Saints of G-d and is why the Saints are included in the name.  I would suggest that if anyone is aware of anyone or anything that is a problem in the Church that they humbly pray to G-d concerning that problem and inquire what it is that they can do (or sacrifice) to assist G-d in his mitigation of the problem.  As I have done this myself  - almost always in such things, the first thing I am commanded to do is to repent.

 

The Traveler

Great thoughts and I completely agree. I will just add that I think that there are underlying problems with the church and in the church that I am powerless to help fix, beyond striving to love and serve God and my fellow man to the best of my ability until God sees fit to intervene and clean things up. 

Edited April 6 by Maverick

[Traveler]

On 4/5/2024 at 9:50 AM, NeuroTypical said:

The notion of being "in error" has always interested me.  We're humans for pete's sake.  Being occasionally wrong is part of our mortal probation.  God does not take the humanity of His prophets/seers/revelators away, just because they get called to the work.  From what I can tell, the brethren have spent decades taking great care to make sure their opinions are presented as opinions, and their prophetic declarations are presented as prophetic declarations.  And even taking that into account, I've done better aligning with the brethren's opinions than I have being out of alignment with them.

 

I would add a little thought.  It is written that a testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophesy.  There are many in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that prophesy – even children.  I believe that the greatest error (as prophesied by the Book of Mormon) of the Saints of these Last-days is hearing and seeing through the spirit – much more than it is being mislead by the L-rd’s anointed. Note that all that covenant and worship at the temple of G-d are anointed by the power and authority of G-d.

 

The Traveler

[laronius]

44 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I would add a little thought.  It is written that a testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophesy.  There are many in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that prophesy – even children.  I believe that the greatest error (as prophesied by the Book of Mormon) of the Saints of these Last-days is hearing and seeing through the spirit – much more than it is being mislead by the L-rd’s anointed. Note that all that covenant and worship at the temple of G-d are anointed by the power and authority of G-d.

 

The Traveler

You make a great point @Traveler. I was previously in a ward that combined our youth programs with a Spanish speaking branch who met in the same building. The branch president was not very popular among some members of his branch. I don't know what exactly the issue was but it was clear there were some in other leadership positions who thought they could do a better job and even hinted at such. When the branch presidency was eventually reorganized the man called as president had very little if any leadership or administrative experience, he was very introverted and not someone the world would view as a leader at all. But he was humble. Whatever else we may have been deficient in he was definitely humble and that made him a better candidate than the others who appeared to have more leadership "ability". The Holy Ghost is the great equalizer. With the Holy Ghost leaders don't need to be perfect. And if we have the Spirit we don't need perfect leaders.

 

Edited April 7 by laronius

[Ironhold]

4 hours ago, laronius said:

You make a great point @Traveler. I was previously in a ward that combined our youth programs with a Spanish speaking branch who met in the same building. The branch president was not very popular among some members of his branch. I don't know what exactly the issue was but it was clear there were some in other leadership positions who thought they could do a better job and even hinted at such. When the branch presidency was eventually reorganized the man called as president had very little if any leadership or administrative experience, he was very introverted and not someone the world would view as a leader at all. But he was humble. Whatever else we may have been deficient in he was definitely humble and that made him a better candidate than the others who appeared to have more leadership "ability". The Holy Ghost is the great equalizer. With the Holy Ghost leaders don't need to be perfect. And if we have the Spirit we don't need perfect leaders.

 

It's case by case. 

I remember one ward I was in where the position of Gospel Doctrine instructor was given to people who needed to somehow grow into the role. Some people needed to humble themselves, others needed to find their courage, et cetra. 

In contrast, I was finishing up my MBA when I was called upon to be the finance clerk of a YSA branch. Long story short, I had to change the entire culture there as the leadership and clerks had gotten a little sloppy when it came to following official protocols, and even then we almost failed an audit because an attempt to cross-train the membership clerk to do my job ended with the membership clerk deciding to use paper clips instead of staples as per best practices and a key document nearly getting lost as a result.