Wife said she never loved me...ouch

[eddified]

9 hours ago, SilentOne said:

I had quite a bit of coursework relating to divorce in college and women are, or at least were ~10 years ago, more likely to ask for a divorce. Who was most responsible for causing the initial marital problems was not known.

If we consider the men who want more sexual partners and want to stay married, but are unrepentant in their adultery, then yes it makes sense that the women are the ones asking for divorce. Same for cases of physical abuse. I guess it seems likely that whoever is causing the problems is usually less likely to be the one asking for the divorce. Just guessing here....

[Dillon]

I will apologize for my generalization of using terms such as "most" and 'all", that isnt fair. But I still dont think its fair for everyone to attack me just because I said a woman may have said something that she truly meant.  "Some" women marry for money, it does happen.

Everyone says "oh she is sick man,  she didnt mean it. Everything is fine, just love her more, buy her more, she loves you. They have a name for it, its postpartum depression, that explains why she said that, it was the postpartum depression talking, not her,  a woman would never marry someone they didnt love, women dont do that. All I was saying is, yes some women do.

 

[anatess2]

5 minutes ago, Dillon said:

I will apologize for my generalization of using terms such as "most" and 'all", that isnt fair. But I still dont think its fair for everyone to attack me just because I said a woman may have said something that she truly meant.  "Some" women marry for money, it does happen.

Everyone says "oh she is sick man,  she didnt mean it. Everything is fine, just love her more, buy her more, she loves you. They have a name for it, its postpartum depression, that explains why she said that, it was the postpartum depression talking, not her,  a woman would never marry someone they didnt love, women dont do that. All I was saying is, yes some women do.

 

You're still full of crap.  Point out in these 4 pages of comments where everyone in this forum said any of this:

"oh she is sick man,  she didnt mean it. Everything is fine, just love her more, buy her more, she loves you. They have a name for it, its postpartum depression, that explains why she said that, it was the postpartum depression talking, not her,  a woman would never marry someone they didnt love, women dont do that. All I was saying is, yes some women do."

[eddified]

@NightSG @Vort  As this is an advice forum, and seeing as how we have just a few paragraphs of material to work from, assumptions must be made. I personally try to assume the best in people. But at the same time we should be realistic. If we apply these rules to this case, I think we do come up with a picture of a woman that does not love her husband -- or at least, doesn't think she does. It is entirely possible that @mormondad doesn't realize there are other things at work here: perhaps his wife is using him and he doesn't realize it. Perhaps his wife is rather cold-hearted and wouldn't love her husband under any circumstances. Perhaps his wife has mental or emotional issues that are preventing her from loving fully. Perhaps she just wants to leech off a man as @Dillon suggests. Who knows? There are pessimistic assumptions that could be made. There are also optimistic assumptions that could be made. I tend to try to make more optimistic assumptions, hence my guess that maybe OP's wife just doesn't realize she loves him, and may in the future. 

Christ did teach long suffering and patience. That's why I take this angle in this situation. Without any other evidence of abuse (though there may be that, we just haven't seen evidence of that yet), I personally won't start recommending the OP get a lawyer (etc). 

As for whether we can attribute the "never loved you" statement to ppd only.. I think we can't. The OP made it clear that she has never loved him. I say take her at her word. 

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, eddified said:

If we apply these rules to this case, I think we do come up with a picture of a woman that does not love her husband.

 

Okay, you need to answer this question too.

DEFINE LOVE.

In concrete terms.

Edited August 30, 2017 by anatess2

[Vort]

7 hours ago, NightSG said:

he was mentally searching for previously unexploited strengths of the Old Steinitz Defense

That's funny.

[estradling75]

7 hours ago, NightSG said:

When Vort and Dillon are the only ones making any sense...

 

Really...  I grant Vort make sense but he is not condemning a whole gender (like Dillion has and you have in the past)

If I was in the OP shoes and my wife of 20 years and four kids said she did not love me.  If said announcement came as a total shock then I can't claim I have suffered emotional abuse for the last 20 years because otherwise it would not be a shock.

Given that the announcement was unexpected I can not claim was abused during the prior twenty years of marriage, and I would be over the hills hopeful for the various suggestions that my wife might not have been in her right mind when she said it.  Because that is a straight forward (if not easy) path to getting it fixed, and if she has given me 20 years of married happiness then helping her through this struggle is exactly what I owe her.  Not to suddenly abandon ship because she is struggling now.

Now lets say she is in her right mind, that she has not loved me.  By what definition of love?  For the last twenty years I have felt her love for me though her actions and her service..  Thus from my perspective she is flat out wrong, she has loved me.  and that is worth fighting for if she is willing.

And that is the big question that no one here can answer...  What is she going to do now?  Is she going to abandon the marriage and go looking for "love?"  If that is the case then yeah he is kind of screwed and one of the three A are likely to be incoming.. But that is a future possibly not written in stone. But if she is willing to stay with the marriage and try to work things through is she not worth the effort?  Is not the promise I made to the Lord when I was sealed to her worth the effort?

 

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Is not the promise I made to the Lord when I was sealed to her worth the effort?

To me, this is the most compelling argument, and I think it's the crux of the matter. Do we honor our covenants with God? If so, let the chips fall where they may. Not an easy rule by any means, but simple.

[NeuroTypical]

25 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Okay, you need to answer this question too.

DEFINE LOVE.

In concrete terms.

No problem.

Love has two meanings.  
Meaning #1: Love is a noun: The emotional, spiritual, sometimes physical feelings and connections shared with another.  Philos, eros, and agape - google it.
Meaning #2: Love is a verb: The actions, attitudes, and behaviors done for/to/with another as a way of filling their needs, placing them first, and making them happy.

Both partners putting effort into both is best.  Anything less is, well, less best. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by NeuroTypical

[prisonchaplain]

I never got that the OP was about men v. women, feminism, or the secular question: what can I do that would make me happy today. So, most posters tried to give advice that was empathetic, and that encouraged the kind of godly love that is sometimes required to keep faith-based marriages alive, during stretches when one of the partners can't carry her load. IMHO, when the discussion veered into the whole debate over whether women are mostly-sometimes-can be  at fault, the string got derailed. Then throw in the arguments that men should not have to put up with the double-standard, and if a woman says she doesn't like you, well then leave--she asked for it, and that's the best hope for happiness, my thought was, "What does all that have to do with the OP's quest to make his marriage the most God-pleasing he can, without denying his own needs, of course?" Thankfully, @mormondad was able to wade through the posts and find some worthy counsel. 

Once I married I rather lost interest in debates about feminism. It did not matter to me whether 18 or 80% were classic or 3rd-wave feminists. My wife's view on our household matters became much more important. We often joke about the woman never being at fault, but the truth is that couples do best when they trust each other. Early on, that's learned--and it can be a tough slog. There comes that day though. I know I said something way out of line, and was disrespectful or even hurtful. My wife looks at me with a "Really? We both know you know better." Nothing is even said. THEN I know the blessing of a faith-built union.

Edited August 30, 2017 by prisonchaplain

[anatess2]

58 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

No problem.

Love has two meanings.  
Meaning #1: Love is a noun: The emotional, spiritual, sometimes physical feelings and connections shared with another.  Philos, eros, and agape - google it.
Meaning #2: Love is a verb: The actions, attitudes, and behaviors done for/to/with another as a way of filling their needs, placing them first, and making them happy.

Both partners putting effort into both is best.  Anything less is, well, less best. 

You're not @eddified. 

And these definitions are psychobabble.  Not concrete.  Even "Making them happy" is not concrete.  We can claim to make someone happy as much as we want but that happiness is completely in the hands of the individual and out of someone else's control.  The OP is pretty much an illustration of this.

Edited August 30, 2017 by anatess2

[NeuroTypical]

Ok then, let's hear anatess2' definition!   What is love?

[anatess2]

21 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Ok then, let's hear anatess2' definition!   What is love?

I've given my definition... nay, I've given THE definition of love here many many times.

First commandment - Love God with all your heart, mind, and strength.

Second commandment - Love others as yourself.

The first Love is to surrender/consecrate our entire selves to God.

The second is to consecrate our lives to bringing others with us to be one with God.

That is love.

So, an un-married person might say - I had sex with my girlfriend because I love her so much.  Did he really?  If he truly loved his girlfriend he wouldn't sacrifice her great pearl of chastity for the satiation of a moment's leisure that brings her farther from God.

Don Lemmon likes to say - denying gay people same-sex marriage is discrimination because society is banning them from love.  But, are they really?  Same sex marriage is bringing 2 people and their children farther from God.  Is that love?

An abused spouse would say - I put up with the abuse because I love my spouse.  Does he really?  How is cooperation for his spouse to exercise abusive behavior bringing both of them closer to God?

And for the OP - the wife says, "I never loved you."  Is that true?  Did she prevent you or worked towards you getting farther from God?  Or did she live her life such that her home can be a place where the family can come closer to God?

Words are cheap.  I love you is written about, sung about, acted about on all our entertainment medium.  Yet most of the time, love does not get beyond the tingling of the chest, butterlies in the stomach, knees turned to jelly.  That's not love.  And a lot of times, people say they don't love another because their knees didn't turn to jelly.  That's looking for love in the wrong places.

Edited August 30, 2017 by anatess2

[Dillon]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

You're still full of crap.  Point out in these 4 pages of comments where everyone in this forum said any of this:

"oh she is sick man,  she didnt mean it. Everything is fine, just love her more, buy her more, she loves you. They have a name for it, its postpartum depression, that explains why she said that, it was the postpartum depression talking, not her,  a woman would never marry someone they didnt love, women dont do that. All I was saying is, yes some women do."

Ok,  maybe I was being a little sarcastic,  but there were plenty that blamed it on the depression, meaning  that she felt that way because she was depressed and the depression had her feeling this way and that in turn meant she didnt really feel this way.  Does that even make sense. Never mind, bottom line is I got attacked because I said something "negative" about a woman and obviously you dont do that here. I was just trying to share an opinion on what I thought about the whole sad situation the guy is in.

[anatess2]

19 minutes ago, Dillon said:

Ok,  maybe I was being a little sarcastic,  but there were plenty that blamed it on the depression, meaning  that she felt that way because she was depressed and the depression had her feeling this way and that in turn meant she didnt really feel this way.  Does that even make sense.

Yes it makes a lot of sense.  I gave you an account of my experience.  Did you read it?

 

19 minutes ago, Dillon said:

Never mind, bottom line is I got attacked because I said something "negative" about a woman and obviously you dont do that here. I was just trying to share an opinion on what I thought about the whole sad situation the guy is in.

You didn't say something negative about a woman.  You said something negative about all women.  That kind of collectivism is going to get shut down.  As it should.

My advice to you.  Learn to communicate better to avoid these pitfalls.

[eddified]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Okay, you need to answer this question too.

DEFINE LOVE.

In concrete terms.

Sorry I just meant that she honestly believes she does not love her husband, by her definition. I don't think we can just chalk it up to ppd. 

[prisonchaplain]

4 minutes ago, eddified said:

Sorry I just meant that she honestly believes she does not love her husband, by her definition. I don't think we can just chalk it up to ppd. 

You and @Dillon might be right about this. So what is @mormondad to do? If he assumes you're right, he loses her, and yet will always wonder if deep down inside, she did have some love--but it was muffled out by her security issues and depression. On the other hand, if he assumes that she is struggling tremendously, does have some love for him, but currently is not in a place where she can express it, then he can do due diligence towards her, obey his vows, and see what miracle the LORD may bring about. Even if she ends up leaving, at least he'll know he loved her right, and obeyed Heavenly Father in the process.

[Latter-Day Marriage]

So sorry you are going through this.  My wife never said that to me, but there was a time where things lead me to believe she felt that way so I do know that kind of pain.  It was the worst time of my life when I felt it was true.

One thing I think you need to keep in mind is that memory is fluid, and how a person feels today can greatly color how they remember the past.  People who get into an affair often experience the same kind of thing where the pleasure and excitement of the affair lead them to re-write the past in their mind, not as a conscious decision to do so however.  It's called 'the fog'.  I'm not saying she is up to anything, just giving an example of how people often re-write their memories based on the current situation.  Everyone wants to the hero of their own story, even if they have to alter the past in their head.

In her case there was/is some depression, and depression is something else that can certainly do that, throwing a dark cloud over her mind so that she feels now like she has never loved you even though in the past she had.  I can't say for sure, but it may be her illness leading her to say and think that rather than how things actually were back then.  If you look back, were there things she did that expressed actually being in love with you?   Letters or things she said or did?  Hang on to those memories, even when she re-writes them as something else.

It is possible to have that fluidity work for you as well and move from where things are now to a point where she (again) feels real love towards you and even acknowledges her feeling that in the past, so don't give up hope.

It sounds to me like you really do love her still, and so I say you should fight for a better marriage.  Not fight her, fight the obstacles.  Yes, you need to talk with her about how you feel and what you would like the marriage to be like.  I know how scary that is.  In my situation the fear that if we talked about it she would only confirm all my worst fears kept me silent for a very long time and that in fact made it harder to work through it.  I had to get to the point where I knew if I didn't do something it would eventually come apart.

I wrote a bit on my blog about fighting for your marriage.  It was more about overcoming problems in the sexual relationship but the principles can be adapted to other situations.

http://latterday-marriage.blogspot.ca/2015/05/fight-for-your-marriage-part-1.html

I hope it helps, but remember you can't make somebody love you.  You can show them your love for them, even when they are not loving in return.  Do that, not with motive to shame or pressure her into loving you back, but just to express your love with no strings attached.  God can change a person's heart although it can take a long time.  Express gratitude for the good things she does and for what affection she gives you.  Find a helpful counselor who understands and make sure she doesn't feel like you are trying to 'fix' her, but that you want both of you to have a joyful marriage together so you can both be very happy.
 

[priesthoodpower]

17 hours ago, NightSG said:

When Vort and Dillon are the only ones making any sense...

Let's look over the other advice here:

Im not disagreeing with anyone, im open minded and am just enjoying the entertainment of this thread.

 

[Bad Karma]

On 8/30/2017 at 7:53 AM, Vort said:

To me, this is the most compelling argument, and I think it's the crux of the matter. Do we honor our covenants with God? If so, let the chips fall where they may. Not an easy rule by any means, but simple.

Absolutely! Vehemently, over and over again and then some. My own marriage struggles, the deceiver seeks to destroy families. But allow me to edit this, the promises I made to the lord AND my wife make it worth it, even when I am driven to my knees in tears, it's worth it, yes, and let the chips fall where they may, and it's still worth it, every tear, every cry, every moment of frustration and even human doubt, all worth it when the most beautiful of promises are kept to God and spouse in sealing. Hard, sometimes..

[Me too]

On 8/29/2017 at 8:56 AM, my two cents said:

One more thing - She probably has a heart wall. No amount of counselling sessions* can help with that. You need to connect with someone who knows the EmotionCode (developed by a practicing Mormon). Google for more info.

*counselling helps with the intellectual side to a person but there are spiritual, physical and emotional sides as well and you need to go to the right person to get the right help

 

On 8/28/2017 at 10:23 PM, mormondad said:

After about 5 years of marriage, my wife told me she never loved me.

Everything I read talks about rekindling the lost love that was there in the beginning, but what if it was never there?? What if she married me for reasons other than love? Her main reasons were that she believed I would be a kind husband & father and a good provider. I admit those aren’t bad reasons, but I would have liked there to be some genuine romantic love on her part. I still feel like there was and I like to think there was, but there are just so many mixed messages I don't know what to think anymore.

A little background. I majorly pursued her in college and thought that I had truly won her over when we started to talk marriage. I thought it was safe to assume that her marrying me was a signal that she was just as crazy about me as I was about her...nope.

5 years later after baby number 3 we were having problems and went to counseling. We didn't realize at the time she was in the middle of postpartum depression. But that’s when it came out. I felt devastated, cheated, and that I was no more than a sperm bank and a paycheck. I realize it might not be fair to put a lot of weight in things said by a woman in the midst of ppd, but the cynical side of me thought she was in a state of such indifference that she just let her true thoughts flow. I figured the ppd was just a vehicle that allowed the truth to come out.

Fast forward five more years. We are active LDS trying to do things right, but I feel like our marriage could be so much more. I fear that our young kids will sense a disconnection in my marriage and that it will have negative implication in theirs. Even when things seem good, I always have the thought deep down that she never really loved me. It’s hard not to attribute any marital problem to that. It also wasn't very reassuring when we had another therapist a year or two later who was pretty quick to suggest divorce.

Am I overthinking this? I realize we're still much better off than many arranged marriages. I think about President Kimball’s famous quote that “almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price." (Why did he have to say “almost any”?) In the same talk he says “marriage can be, more an exultant ecstasy than the human mind can conceive.” That just seems so far out of reach for me. 

Do I just settle for the fact that my wife settled for me? Or do I fight for something more? How do I come to terms and stop thinking about it? Do I talk to her? It's come up occasionally but usually in an argument (she never really acknowledges it, but she never denies it either). Do I just endure and hope for the best of the afterlife? That seems like a bleak prospect.

Thanks in advance. This one is my humdinger of the last decade.

Holy crap your experience is almost mine verbatim.  I literally feel your pain.  I feel so cheated In my marriage. Hard to express my emotions.  This issue has drastically affected our intimate married life as well and things are spiraling for the worse slowly.   It's tough to solve problems and get through issues when one side is uncommitted from the get go.  I've read the advice from some on this thread but where I personally struggle is that a marriage shouldn't be this hard right?  At what point do you start over?  I hate that I have 3 boys now too, makes for minimal good choices.  The advice was to try to make her love you but it just stinks that I'm married and have to worry about this (issues like this should have come out pre-alter).  I fundamentally believe in more equality in a married and if one spouse is constantly trying to woo the other one over it really sucks the fun out of a marriage.  

[Latter-Day Marriage]

On 11/15/2017 at 3:45 AM, Me too said:

The advice was to try to make her love you but it just stinks that I'm married and have to worry about this (issues like this should have come out pre-alter).  I fundamentally believe in more equality in a married and if one spouse is constantly trying to woo the other one over it really sucks the fun out of a marriage.  

You can't make somebody love you.  You can create the circumstances that encourage somebody to love you, but you can't make them do it.  Even in a case where a marriage is healthy a husband shouldn't take her love for granted and still court her, but I get what you mean, a wife so courted should reciprocate in some way, it needs to be a two way street.  Counsel with God on what to do.  Hearts can change, or at least God can reward you after this life for doing the right thing in face of such challenges.  The things we give up and do without here in order to follow Christ will be given to us tenfold afterwards.

[Grunt]

On 11/15/2017 at 3:45 AM, Me too said:

  I fundamentally believe in more equality in a married and if one spouse is constantly trying to woo the other one over it really sucks the fun out of a marriage.  

 

While I can't relate to your situation, I absolutely don't agree with this.  I love wooing my wife.  I'm pretty undeserving of her.

 

[Me too]

14 hours ago, Grunt said:

While I can't relate to your situation, I absolutely don't agree with this.  I love wooing my wife.  I'm pretty undeserving of her.

 

And I bet she reciprocates......  Easy to love someone who loves you back.  It gets real old when the other spouse makes you feel like you are being taken for granted.  I'm going to read into this heart wall topic.  Does anyone know a good counselor who specializes in this in Salt Lake City?  

The way I see this is, I'm only getting older and if it's not going to work then as painful as it is, I'd rather get the inevitable (divorce) done with and find happiness.  

Marriage issues are the worst, they effect, work, social life, etc.  I literally just got asked to be the EQP in my ward (ironic right, they call the guy who is a hot mess), and I just can't handle everything coming at me right now.  

 

14 hours ago, Grunt said:

While I can't relate to your situation, I absolutely don't agree with this.  I love wooing my wife.  I'm pretty undeserving of her.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Me too

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, Me too said:

 I literally just got asked to be the EQP in my ward (ironic right, they call the guy who is a hot mess), and I just can't handle everything coming at me right now.  

Hang in there bud. I know you can do this. The bishop wouldn't have called you if you can't.