Meadows massacre

[Rich23]

Do people in here believe that the ones murdered in the mountain meadows deserved it and do you believe that Brigham Young had nothing to do with it. My mom is a Mormon and I am a former Mormon and I believe it's wrong to hide what happened

[Vort]

Do people here believe that it's okay for agitators to misrepresent history and facts in order to grind away at their personal axe? I am a current Mormon and I believe it's wrong to lie by implication.

[Just_A_Guy]

6 minutes ago, Rich23 said:

Do people in here believe that the ones murdered in the mountain meadows deserved it and do you believe that Brigham Young had nothing to do with it. My mom is a Mormon and I am a former Mormon and I believe it's wrong to hide what happened

Of course they didn’t deserve it.

Young’s rhetoric during the Utah War certainly fed into an emotional environment that made it easier for the Iron County Militia members to do what they ultimately did; and in the aftermath, Young wasn’t eager to facilitate a federal investigation that he had every reason to expect would morph into a witch hunt.  

But no, I don’t think he ordered the massacre; and there is good evidence that he was sincerely horrified by what has happened.

[Guest MormonGator]

No one here believes that they deserved it. Or if they do believe it, it's a small minority. 

It is wrong to hide it, but the church doesn't hide it. That's why we're talking about it here in an LDS forum. 

[Ironhold]

When Brigham Young was notified that there were simmering tensions in Iron County, he actually ordered the militia to *stand down*. He figured that the Paiutes would do as they pleased, but wanted the militia to stay out of whatever was going on. However, his written orders arrived too late to be of any use. 

So anyone who says that Young ordered the incident is playing an angle. 

[Jane_Doe]

59 minutes ago, Rich23 said:

Do people in here believe that the ones murdered in the mountain meadows deserved it 

Of course not!

59 minutes ago, Rich23 said:

 My mom is a Mormon and I am a former Mormon and I believe it's wrong to hide what happened

Who's hiding it?

We're on a public forum, talking about this after all.  You can read about it on LDS.org.  I've heard it discussed in LDS educational context too.  It's free to talk about.  

[omegaseamaster75]

1 hour ago, Rich23 said:

Do people in here believe that the ones murdered in the mountain meadows deserved it and do you believe that Brigham Young had nothing to do with it. My mom is a Mormon and I am a former Mormon and I believe it's wrong to hide what happened

No one deserved to be murdered, I don't think that Brigham ordered the attack. 

Let's face it it does not look good when members of a religious organization kill other people even if it had nothing to do with religion (or even if it did),. but if your going to cast a stone at the LDS you must hold a really big grudge against the whole of christianity and the muslim part of the world for all of the killing's done in the name of Jesus and Allah.

[Ironhold]

If the OP really wants to know more, I'd recommend: 

https://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Conflict-1850-1859-Norman-Furniss/dp/0300113072

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Of course not!

Who's hiding it?

We're on a public forum, talking about this after all.  You can read about it on LDS.org.  I've heard it discussed in LDS educational context too.  It's free to talk about.  

Your mistake is in taking Rich23 seriously. He obviously had no intention of engaging in rational conversation on the topic. He's an axe-grinder. Period. He comes onto an LDS site proudly proclaiming his not-a-Mormon-any-more status, and throws down the gauntlet of Mountain Meadows, hoping to enjoy the conflagration as he throws the lit match into the powder keg.

The very best thing to do with the Rich23s of the world is to call them on their duplicity and then refuse to otherwise engage with their dishonest selves.

[Sunday21]

From Mormon Newsroom https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mountain-meadows-massacre

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Your mistake is in taking Rich23 seriously. He obviously had no intention of engaging in rational conversation on the topic. He's an axe-grinder. Period. He comes onto an LDS site proudly proclaiming his not-a-Mormon-any-more status, and throws down the gauntlet of Mountain Meadows, hoping to enjoy the conflagration as he throws the lit match into the powder keg.

The very best thing to do with the Rich23s of the world is to call them on their duplicity and then refuse to otherwise engage with their dishonest selves.

Vort, be nice.  Let other people's issues be their issues.  Your and my job is simply to follow Christ. 

[Vort]

Just now, Jane_Doe said:

Vort, be nice.  Let other people's issues be their issues.  Your and my job is simply to follow Christ. 

Actually, I think pointing out hypocrisy is a very Christ-like thing to do. Perhaps not in the sarcastic manner I did...

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Vort, be nice. 

Expecting @Vort to be nice is like expecting him to take a shot of whiskey. 

Edited March 1, 2018 by MormonGator

[zil]

5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Expecting @Vort to be nice is like expecting him to take a shot of whiskey. 

No, no, that's neat, not "nice".  I know it's been a while Gator, but try to remember...

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, Rich23 said:

Do people in here believe that the ones murdered in the mountain meadows deserved it and do you believe that Brigham Young had nothing to do with it. My mom is a Mormon and I am a former Mormon and I believe it's wrong to hide what happened

No, nobody deserves what happened to the Fancher party.  The whole thing is a blot on our past, a stain on our history.    Brigham Young was involved - he saw it coming, and tried really hard to stop it.  He failed.  

Hide what happened?  You mean by publishing the story on our church website and writing books about it?

https://www.lds.org/topics/mountain-meadows-massacre?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/topics/peace-and-violence-among-19th-century-latter-day-saints
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/150th-anniversary-of-mountain-meadows-massacre
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/interviews-with-authors-of-massacre-at-mountain-meadows
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mountain-meadows-massacre

 

Hide what happened?  You mean by funding a monument for the site?

[warnerfranklin]

2 hours ago, Rich23 said:

Do people in here believe that the ones murdered in the mountain meadows deserved it....  I believe it's wrong to hide what happened

With all due respect, being a relatively new covert to the LDS faith, I have never heard anyone in the church condone the massacre.  Further, I’ve read numerous books, that I purchased through Deseret Books, that have documented this incident, so I don’t really see how people say, “the church covered it up.”

What I have noticed is that critics of church like to throw this and polygamy at us while ignoring the the fact that at the time you had the ongoing Mormon War (not an excuse for the massacre just some context) and the fact we did away plural marriages almost 140 years ago.  

It is unfortunate that you left the church  I hope you found a church family that better suits your needs as a fellow Christian.

God bless and keep you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mordorbund]

51 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

No, nobody deserves what happened to the Fancher party.  The whole thing is a blot on our past, a stain on our history.    Brigham Young was involved - he saw it coming, and tried really hard to stop it.  He failed.  

Hide what happened?  You mean by publishing the story on our church website and writing books about it?

https://www.lds.org/topics/mountain-meadows-massacre?lang=eng
https://www.lds.org/topics/peace-and-violence-among-19th-century-latter-day-saints
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/150th-anniversary-of-mountain-meadows-massacre
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/interviews-with-authors-of-massacre-at-mountain-meadows
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mountain-meadows-massacre

 

Hide what happened?  You mean by funding a monument for the site?

 

UGH!! Why are we so rotten at hiding and whitewashing our history?!

[The Folk Prophet]

5 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Of course they didn’t deserve it.

How could you know?

I'm not saying I think they did. But only God really knows.

[NeuroTypical]

7 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

How could you know?

I'm thinking about what one group of human beings could do to another that could possibly warrant (in God's eyes) killing of all adult males and females, who were mostly defenseless.  Followed by placing the children into the homes of the "winning side" and raising them as their own.  Not coming up with much. 

I'm thinking about how things were different in the frontier territories back in the mid 1900's.  Still not coming up with much.

I'm further thinking about how the history is told by all parties involved, and thinking about the points of alignment that nobody disagrees with.  Honestly, I can't come up with anything any group of migrating humans could do as they crossed land owned by other humans, that would warrant such a response.  

I mean, "God so orders it" might be a justification, but I don't think anyone from any side, in any era, has claimed that He did.

Edited March 1, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[lostinwater]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Expecting @Vort to be nice is like expecting him to take a shot of whiskey. 

Methinks that @Vort is just a big teddy bear in disguise.  Granted, it's an exceptionally good disguise on many days - especially when questioned/challenged by those the mormon church labels as apostates like me - but a disguise nonetheless.  Actually i think that's true for just about everyone here.  

But especially with him being in Seattle and all, who can blame him - i mean, all that compassion, acceptance, and understanding - it just sort of seeps into a person after a while.   

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm thinking about what one group of human beings could do to another that could possibly warrant killing of all adult males and females, who were mostly defenseless.  Followed by placing the children into the homes of the "winning side" and raising them as their own.  Not coming up with much. 

I'm thinking about how things were different in the frontier territories back in the mid 1900's.  Still not coming up with much.

I'm further thinking about how the history is told by all parties involved, and thinking about the points of alignment that nobody disagrees with.  Honestly, I can't come up with anything any group of migrating humans could do as they crossed land owned by other humans, that would warrant such a response.

 

The point is that none of the above is talking about whether they "deserved" it or not. It's talking about whether those who did it were justified in doing it. That's more clear (though not 100%, as history tends to be pretty murky, and we like to think we understand and see it all clearly, but we do not). But the state of the souls of those killed and what they did and did not deserve? --Only God knows.

We simply don't see the bigger picture. Someday we will. Until then, saying anyone did or did not deserve any given thing runs the risk of being mistaken.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that they did deserve it either. Just that the question really ought to be about the actions of the killers and their justification -- which we widely accept as not justified in any regard -- rather than the larger, who-deserved-what, question.

Edited March 1, 2018 by The Folk Prophet

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

Methinks that @Vort is just a big teddy bear in disguise.

Yes, this one: 

But all joking aside he really is a great guy, I'm totally teasing him. 

Edited March 1, 2018 by MormonGator

[Just_A_Guy]

21 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

How could you know?

I'm not saying I think they did. But only God really knows.

Fair point, in the abstract.  There are certainly scriptures suggesting that no human has any theoretical right to exist.  

I suppose I read the OP’s question as asking whether the Iron County Militia’s act was justified; to which I reply in the negative.  Regardless of what the Fancher train (or anyone else) may have deserved in the grand scheme of things, I’m not aware of any civil or moral code that would objectively justify the perpetrators in meting out the sort of “justice” they actually administered.

(EDIT:  looking at your second post, it looks like we are in the same page.)

Edited March 1, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[The Folk Prophet]

14 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Fair point, in the abstract.  There are certainly scriptures suggesting that no human has any theoretical right to exist.  

I suppose I read the OP’s question as asking whether the Iron County Militia’s act was justified; to which I reply in the negative.  Regardless of what the Fancher train (or anyone else) may have deserved in the grand scheme of things, I’m not aware of any civil or moral code that would objectively justify the perpetrators in meting out the sort of “justice” they actually administered.

(EDIT:  looking at your second post, it looks like we are in the same page.)

Nod.

In the purest abstract, and based on the lack of real knowledge about what really went down behind the scenes, we really don't know about justification either. But we strongly presume.

[Grunt]

This site gets a lot of hit and runs.