Correctly Calculating Tithing

[VelvetShadow]

D&C 119:4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

Hi everyone, I've read through an entire thread on tithing and now I'm even more confused! The D&C says one tenth of all interest annually, but if example 3 is correct you're paying tithing on top of tithing so I don't think thats correct, maybe example 2 is closer to it? Or maybe I'm looking way too much into this and it really is as simple as example 1?

I don't have a problem working out the 10% of my income but its the assets I am having trouble with. I want to understand this correctly so can someone please tell me which of the following basic examples is doctrinally correct?  Which example would you consider an honest tithe? Which example would you yourself pay on?  

Thanks so much for your help.  I can just see myself in a temple recommend interview saying "um I'll have to speak to my accountant and get back to you on that!"

Example 1

I join the church in 2018

my home is worth $600K and I owe $100K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income

total tithe 10K

2019

my home is worth $600K and now I owe $50K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income

total tithe 10K

Example 2

I join the church in 2018

my home is worth $600K and I owe $100K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income 

Total tithe would be 10K

2019

home is still worth 600K but now I owe 50K on it

my income is still 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income and 5K of the value of the portion of my home I have gained since last year.

Total tithe would be 15K

 

Example 3

I join the church in 2018

my home is worth $600K and I owe $100K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income plus 50K of the value of the portion of my home I own.

Total tithe would be 60K

2019

home is still worth 600K but now I owe 50K on it

my income is still 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income and 5K of the value of the portion of my home I have gained since last year.

Total tithe would be 15K

 

Example 4

I join the church in 2018

my home is worth $600K and I owe $100K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income plus 50K of the value of the portion of my home I own.

Total tithe 60K

2019

My home is still worth 600K but now I owe 50K on it

my income is still 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income and 55K of the value of the portion of my home I own.

Total tithe would be 65K

 

[Grunt]

I hate tithing questions.  Tithing was a huge issue for me durin investigation.  My standard answer is always prayer and whether or not you feel complete when asked if you pay a full tithe.  

However, if forced to choose between your examples, I would choose example one with this addendum:

Upon the sale of your house, subtract your purchase price (including interest) from the sale price and tithe that.  

Disclaimer:  taking my advice in any doctrine related area will likely lead to excommunication. 

[askandanswer]

29 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Disclaimer:  taking my advice in any doctrine related area will likely lead to excommunication. 



Does your class know this? )

[askandanswer]

Never in my life have I ever considered paying tithing on the value of my house. If I were to sell my house then I would simply be swapping one asset - the house - for another - cash, therefore no gain, so no tithing. I pay tithing on my pre-tax income.

[Manners Matter]

Never included house value into tithing. There are so many costs with it (property tax, upkeep, etc) it doesn't always feel like an asset. That said, when we did sell our house and made a decent amount on it, we donated a good portion to the Church Humanitarian Fund. You can always ask your bishop for his thoughts though. (and I love that your plan is to "join the Church in 2018"!!)

[NeuroTypical]

I've never included house value in tithing either.  Having a thing worth something, and it's worth something more the next year, isn't really an "increase" - because your income has not increased.  It's only when you sell the home, do you realize any gain or loss.  And those numbers come from closing documents and tax forms. For example, here's buying a $110k home and then selling it in 10 years:

Total in and out:
-$10k down payment
-$100k principal
-$150k interest
-$25k improvements
TOTAL SPENT = $285

If I sell it for $210k, I would not have an increase, even though it was only a $110k home when I bought it.  Overall, it cost money to live there, it didn't produce money to live there.  Now if I sold it for $300k, I would tithe on the $15k gain.

 

At the end of the day, how you interpret "one-tenth of your interest annually", is between you and the Lord.  It's really simple - you propose a way of tithing, and you ask yourself if the Lord would agree with you that it's one-tenth of your interest.  You have to be mature and emotionally stable enough to be able to have a good answer.  But assuming you are, the Bishop asks you "do you pay a full tithe", and your answer springs from your deal with the Lord.

 

[estradling75]

God and the church is not the IRS... He is not looking for receipts, itemized deduction lists or bill of sales...  He wants something else that is both easier and harder to give...  He wants your heart and mind to be devoted to him.

He has asked for tithing.  How you calculate that is less important then the fact that you are willing to honesty and truthfully do so.  So when you have question of this nature go to him and ask what is acceptable to him from you.  And then pay based on the answer you receive.

[Fether]

4 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

D&C 119:4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

Hi everyone, I've read through an entire thread on tithing and now I'm even more confused! The D&C says one tenth of all interest annually, but if example 3 is correct you're paying tithing on top of tithing so I don't think thats correct, maybe example 2 is closer to it? Or maybe I'm looking way too much into this and it really is as simple as example 1?

I don't have a problem working out the 10% of my income but its the assets I am having trouble with. I want to understand this correctly so can someone please tell me which of the following basic examples is doctrinally correct?  Which example would you consider an honest tithe? Which example would you yourself pay on?  

Thanks so much for your help.  I can just see myself in a temple recommend interview saying "um I'll have to speak to my accountant and get back to you on that!"

Example 1

I join the church in 2018

my home is worth $600K and I owe $100K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income

total tithe 10K

2019

my home is worth $600K and now I owe $50K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income

total tithe 10K

Example 2

I join the church in 2018

my home is worth $600K and I owe $100K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income 

Total tithe would be 10K

2019

home is still worth 600K but now I owe 50K on it

my income is still 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income and 5K of the value of the portion of my home I have gained since last year.

Total tithe would be 15K

 

Example 3

I join the church in 2018

my home is worth $600K and I owe $100K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income plus 50K of the value of the portion of my home I own.

Total tithe would be 60K

2019

home is still worth 600K but now I owe 50K on it

my income is still 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income and 5K of the value of the portion of my home I have gained since last year.

Total tithe would be 15K

 

Example 4

I join the church in 2018

my home is worth $600K and I owe $100K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income plus 50K of the value of the portion of my home I own.

Total tithe 60K

2019

My home is still worth 600K but now I owe 50K on it

my income is still 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income and 55K of the value of the portion of my home I own.

Total tithe would be 65K

 

•  

If I ever find myself gaining an increase, I tithe it.

Youdont need to continually calculate the increased value of the thing you own. How terrible would it be if your daughter owned a build-a-bear stuffed animal and one day all the build-a-bears in the world burned down along with every bear except your own. and all of a sudden your $20 toy becomes worth $2,000,000. Tithing would bankrupt you.

this I KNOW. Any income you get needs to be tithed.

How do I live it beyond that?

- tithing on Gross income (not possible in every country)

- When I sell my house for more money than What I paid for it, I would tithe the difference.

- when I receive a financial gift, I tithe that.

- Investments upon the acquiring of cash.

 

[zil]

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-119-the-law-of-tithing?lang=eng&_r=1

How to get rich:

Quote

Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

3 Nephi 14:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

...and my personal favorite in this category (emphasis mine)...

Quote

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

...and lest one think it's strictly "'men" who will be generous in return (again, emphasis mine):

Quote

D&C 1:9 Yea, verily, to seal them up unto the day when the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the wicked without measure—

10 Unto the day when the Lord shall come to recompense unto every man according to his work, and measure to every man according to the measure which he has measured to his fellow man.

Generosity pays for itself.

[Fether]

19 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

God and the church is not the IRS... He is not looking for receipts, itemized deduction lists or bill of sales...  He wants something else that is both easier and harder to give...  He wants your heart and mind to be devoted to him.

He has asked for tithing.  How you calculate that is less important then the fact that you are willing to honesty and truthfully do so.  So when you have question of this nature go to him and ask what is acceptable to him from you.  And then pay based on the answer you receive.

This is totally true... but it becomes more difficult the more you start investing and playing monopoly with you money.

for example. Gross vs net is a common question people ask themselves. In my case I have to do gross. I’m in an all commission job so i don’t pay taxes on every pay check, instead I get punched in the face at the end of the year by taxes. If I did net, I would only pay tithing once a year and the amount would change depending on how creative I get with writing off taxes. 

From how I have though about it, I can never justify paying tithingnon my net. I would be robbing God. But someone in a job like mine that gets both wages and commission may not realize the predicament he is in because of commission, especially if his commission pay is wrapped in with his wage pay. So where he may be justified in only paying net because he doesn’t realize his commission isn’t taxed, I am not because I have been forced into the world of paying taxes through purely reporting income.

it kinda goes back to D+C 82:3 “For of him unto whom much is given much is required; and he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.”

Edited July 23, 2018 by Fether

[Vort]

#1

But if you think #2, #3, or #4 are better, go for it.

Wage-earner tithing is pretty straightforward. Your wages are your increase, so give a tenth. When you start factoring in investment income (including the value of your home), that can make it complicated. (Note the "can" -- it doesn't need to make it complicated, but it can.) I suppose if I sold my house, which has appreciated absurdly in the last decade or so, I would need to figure out how to tithe that substantial increase. Subtract off all my mortgage payments, maybe? I don't know. That doesn't seem quite right, and it feels like it makes tithing into an IRS debt -- exactly what I do not want.

There is a reason tithing questions are usually answered with, "It's between you and God." But that response is not intended to be an "out" whereby you can pay any amount -- or no amount at all! -- and everything is just fine. On the contrary, tithing is your chance to demonstrate to yourself, and also to God, that you mean what you say, that you recognize all of "your" gains as his, and that you acknowledge that you are but a steward of the blessings he has bestowed upon you -- including your very ability to make money. I don't think God is a celestial accountant waiting to audit your report, but I do think that unless we have an appropriate attitude toward money, something along the lines of "sufficient for my needs", we will find ourselves unfit to dwell with our Father.

[omegaseamaster75]

The First Presidency has answered this question in this way: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970).

We do not tithe our assets. If you want to tithe the gain on the sale of your personal residence that is between you and God. The question is will you tithe on the gross gain or less exclusions?

Edited July 23, 2018 by omegaseamaster75

[estradling75]

24 minutes ago, Fether said:

This is totally true... but it becomes more difficult the more you start investing and playing monopoly with you money.

Indeed which is why I said

42 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

 How you calculate that is less important then the fact that you are willing to honesty and truthfully do so. 

If you are smart enough to play monopoly with your money hopefully you are smart enough to have a good idea when you have an "increase" in the tithing sense.

 

And if you make an Honest mistake, and come to the thought that you should have done it differently, down the road.  God is not going to penalize you with fees, or interest or back payments.  You simply fix it going forward and all is well.

It the dishonesty and deceit, and the mindset of doing everything you can to not pay the Lord, or to pay as little as possible, that are killers when it comes to paying tithing

 

[zil]

6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

If you are smart enough to play monopoly with your money...

...buy a hotel on Boardwalk - it'll make you big bucks every time someone lands there.

[Fether]

17 minutes ago, zil said:

...buy a hotel on Boardwalk - it'll make you big bucks every time someone lands there.

That’s what everyone says, and yet no one can win monopoly with that mindset  

The truth is you need to get as many cheap spots as you can and buy up all the houses so no one else can put houses or hotels up. That is where the real money is  

[Manners Matter]

Just remembered that when we sold the house, I also wondered about paying tithing on the sale so asked my bishop. He said it never occurred to him because you're usually using that to buy another so his answer was 'no'. Praying about it, as some have suggested, is always a good idea. 

[anatess2]

5 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

D&C 119:4 And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

Hi everyone, I've read through an entire thread on tithing and now I'm even more confused! The D&C says one tenth of all interest annually, but if example 3 is correct you're paying tithing on top of tithing so I don't think thats correct, maybe example 2 is closer to it? Or maybe I'm looking way too much into this and it really is as simple as example 1?

I don't have a problem working out the 10% of my income but its the assets I am having trouble with. I want to understand this correctly so can someone please tell me which of the following basic examples is doctrinally correct?  Which example would you consider an honest tithe? Which example would you yourself pay on?  

Thanks so much for your help.  I can just see myself in a temple recommend interview saying "um I'll have to speak to my accountant and get back to you on that!"

Example 1

I join the church in 2018

my home is worth $600K and I owe $100K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income

total tithe 10K

2019

my home is worth $600K and now I owe $50K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income

total tithe 10K

Example 2

I join the church in 2018

my home is worth $600K and I owe $100K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income 

Total tithe would be 10K

2019

home is still worth 600K but now I owe 50K on it

my income is still 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income and 5K of the value of the portion of my home I have gained since last year.

Total tithe would be 15K

 

Example 3

I join the church in 2018

my home is worth $600K and I owe $100K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income plus 50K of the value of the portion of my home I own.

Total tithe would be 60K

2019

home is still worth 600K but now I owe 50K on it

my income is still 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income and 5K of the value of the portion of my home I have gained since last year.

Total tithe would be 15K

 

Example 4

I join the church in 2018

my home is worth $600K and I owe $100K on my home

My income is 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income plus 50K of the value of the portion of my home I own.

Total tithe 60K

2019

My home is still worth 600K but now I owe 50K on it

my income is still 100K a year

I would tithe 10K of my income and 55K of the value of the portion of my home I own.

Total tithe would be 65K

 

•  

Your Primary House (the roof over your head) is not an asset.  Rather, it's a liability.  That is because, you can't liquidate that property without going homeless.  It only becomes an asset when you don't need that roof over your head.

Therefore, when you have a primary house and it's value goes up, you simply gained equity - you didn't gain an earning.  The next year when the value goes down (as it usually does as the real estate cycle is like any other - it goes up and it goes down), you didn't lose income, you simply lost equity.

Now, when you sell your home, it is not an earning either - it is the same money you've been paying your house over the years (already tithed) plus inflation.  You would then use that same money to buy another house at the same inflated price.

Now, say you have a primary house and then you purchase an investment property.  That investment property gains income - you then tithe that income.

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by anatess2

[zil]

17 minutes ago, Fether said:

That’s what everyone says, and yet no one can win monopoly with that mindset  

The truth is you need to get as many cheap spots as you can and buy up all the houses so no one else can put houses or hotels up. That is where the real money is  

Stop ruining my joke with your logic!

Edited July 23, 2018 by zil

[The Folk Prophet]

The value of a home is between a buyer and a seller. You can't value it until it sells. If you and the buyer agree upon a dollar...it's worth a dollar. The bank, appraisals, etc., only get involved when there's a loan, etc. So saying one's home is worth some value without having a sale closed is invalid. Until it's sold, it's an approximate/guesstimate.

[VelvetShadow]

Thanks everyone, that really helps.  I think for now I might just start putting aside 10% of my net income to get used to it while I'm still studying and learning about the church and deciding if God wants me to join.  I get taxed 50 cents out of every dollar on the majority of my income so I honestly wouldn't be able to do 10% of my gross.

[Grunt]

9 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Does your class know this? )

I had to learn the hard way, they can too.

[pwrfrk]

What I was taught is to me the simplest way to calculate this.

If I am working and pulling in $1,500/mo. gross, then I pay $150 (10%) monthly.

If I am pulling tips, then 10% of that, gross.

If I own a home and it's worth $150,000 and I still owe $50,000 on it, then I guess I still owe $50,000 on it.  No tithe is paid from this until I sell it.  If I bought it for $150,000 and sell it for $162,375, gross, then I pay $16,237.50, or 10%, of the gross profit.  Should I pay less?  Maybe.  I still pay the 6% for the realtor fees.  I still pay taxes on the sales.  Is the $16k worth so much to me that I must hold onto it?  No.  And I'm not going to regret paying it either, for regretting payment of tithe is akin to non-payment, because it was not done with the sincereness of the heart.  How much did I pay for the house versus how much did Jesus pay for my salvation?

[person0]

For all intents and purposes, it can be said that I tithe my gross income.  However, I am under the impression that most of us sincere and faithful Latter-Day Saints may be paying more tithing than what the Lord requires.

Quote

39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.
(JST Genesis 14:29) emphasis added

However, after tithing on my gross income for so long, I tend to think to myself that readjusting the way I handle tithing would only be an elaborate ruse to give the Lord less and keep more for myself.  That said, I will certainly never judge someone who tithes on their net income, because it reads as though Abraham tithed only on his net surplus.

[Sunday21]

On 7/23/2018 at 5:00 PM, VelvetShadow said:

Thanks everyone, that really helps.  I think for now I might just start putting aside 10% of my net income to get used to it while I'm still studying and learning about the church and deciding if God wants me to join.  I get taxed 50 cents out of every dollar on the majority of my income so I honestly wouldn't be able to do 10% of my gross.

Good plan! 

[RecentConvert]

Hello. If someone's gross is just enough to cover the basics due to say student loans and mortgage, will it be a sin to tithe less? Struggling with this concept. Thank you all.