Emmanuel Goldstein

The Prophet and all Apostles will attend Rome Dedication

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This is just amazing. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900059369/entire-first-presidency-quorum-of-the-twelve-to-attend-rome-temple-dedication-mormon.html

The last time this occured was at the Nauvoo Dedication in 2002 and before that at the LA Temple Dedication in 1956. Very historic times for the Church.

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Shouldn’t there be a “designated survivor”?  I’m not at all certain, theologically, that the First and Second Quorums of the Seventy have the keys to re-constitute the Twelve if they should all die simultaneously. (The Twelve could confer them at any time, I suppose; but historically I'm not sure such a conferral has ever actually happened.)

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Shouldn’t there be a “designated survivor”?  I’m not at all certain, theologically, that the First and Second Quorums of the Seventy have the keys to re-constitute the Twelve if they should all die simultaneously. (The Twelve could confer them at any time, I suppose; but historically I'm not sure such a conferral has ever actually happened.)

I volunteer as tribute!

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17 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Shouldn’t there be a “designated survivor”?  I’m not at all certain, theologically, that the First and Second Quorums of the Seventy have the keys to re-constitute the Twelve if they should all die simultaneously. (The Twelve could confer them at any time, I suppose; but historically I'm not sure such a conferral has ever actually happened.)

I would not think so as they work through delegated keys, they don't hold the keys necessary to re-constitute the Twelve. If they are going, all, we don't have any worry about them being taken before their time. :D

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44 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Shouldn’t there be a “designated survivor”?  I’m not at all certain, theologically, that the First and Second Quorums of the Seventy have the keys to re-constitute the Twelve if they should all die simultaneously. (The Twelve could confer them at any time, I suppose; but historically I'm not sure such a conferral has ever actually happened.)

I get what you're saying, but I think we're all more concerned about leaving the Pope's tug-of-war challenge unmet.

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15 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

I get what you're saying, but I think we're all more concerned about leaving the Pope's tug-of-war challenge unmet.

Unfair. He has more cardinals than we have apostles.

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3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Shouldn’t there be a “designated survivor”?  I’m not at all certain, theologically, that the First and Second Quorums of the Seventy have the keys to re-constitute the Twelve if they should all die simultaneously. (The Twelve could confer them at any time, I suppose; but historically I'm not sure such a conferral has ever actually happened.)

Hopefully, they are taking separate transportation.  Kind of like corporate executives do.

If the worst happens, the Quorum of Seventy would hold the keys to the kingdom.

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9 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Hopefully, they are taking separate transportation.  Kind of like corporate executives do.

If the worst happens, the Quorum of Seventy would hold the keys to the kingdom.

I’ve heard people assert this, but the evidence seemed inconclusive.  Last time I really dug into it, my (easily misremembered) takeaway was that Brigham Young thought the Seventies could do it but John Taylor thought they couldn’t. 

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2 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I’ve heard people assert this, but the evidence seemed inconclusive.  Last time I really dug into it, my (easily misremembered) takeaway was that Brigham Young thought the Seventies could do it but John Taylor thought they couldn’t. 

I'm fairly sure is scriptural in the D&C, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

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4 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

I'm fairly sure is scriptural in the D&C, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

Are you looking for D&C 107: 25-26?

"25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named."

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16 minutes ago, Suzie said:

Are you looking for D&C 107: 25-26?

"25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named."

Right, but even when that revelation came neither the Seventy nor the Twelve had the authority to re-constitute the First Presidency.  That, as I understand it, didn’t happen until Joseph Smith “rolled off” his keys onto the Twelve in March of 1844.

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22 minutes ago, Suzie said:

Are you looking for D&C 107: 25-26?

"25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named."

Good eye. The "equal in authority" does not say to me that the keys of the kingdom lie with them. I think that is not the case; only the apostles, individually and collectively, have the keys. If all apostles were simultaneously wiped out, I think the keys would be lost and have to be restored. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. We are very specifically taught that the apostles hold the keys of the kingdom, and no one else, and that the senior apostle and Church president is the only man in whom those keys are fully operative. So I think JAG has it right.

So what does "equal in authority" mean? I interpret it as meaning that if either of the two other quorums lack enough members to operate ("make a quorum"), the Seventy can authoritatively run the Church—probably under the direction of any surviving apostles—until the Council of the Twelve (or the First Presidency) is reconstituted.

Now you may all pay me the full amount that my opinion is worth.

Very good. Thank you.

Edited by Vort

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Right, but even when that revelation came neither the Seventy nor the Twelve had the authority to re-constitute the First Presidency.  That, as I understand it, didn’t happen until Joseph Smith “rolled off” his keys onto the Twelve in March of 1844.

Yes JAG, we are on the same page. I was just trying to figure out if the scripture I posted is the one that mrmarklin was looking for.

The "equal in authority" does not say to me that the keys of the kingdom lie with them.

I agree.

I think the following scripture puts the topic to rest:

1 Verily, verily, I say unto you my servant Frederick G. Williams: Listen to the voice of him who speaketh, to the word of the Lord your God, and hearken to the calling wherewith you are called, even to be a high priest in my church, and a counselor unto my servant Joseph Smith, Jun.;

2 Unto whom I have given the keys of the kingdom, which belong always unto the Presidency of the High Priesthood.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/81.1-2?lang=eng#0

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19 hours ago, wenglund said:

Not a problem since his cardinals can only move diagonally on the "tug-of-war" board, whereas the apostles can move in all directions.  :)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

No, Apostles all move in one direction, but they get to hold the iron rod.

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21 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Shouldn’t there be a “designated survivor”?  I’m not at all certain, theologically, that the First and Second Quorums of the Seventy have the keys to re-constitute the Twelve if they should all die simultaneously. (The Twelve could confer them at any time, I suppose; but historically I'm not sure such a conferral has ever actually happened.)

Uchtdorf and Bednar would survive. Besides, Rome has very good security services with the Vatican there.

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21 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Shouldn’t there be a “designated survivor”?  I’m not at all certain, theologically, that the First and Second Quorums of the Seventy have the keys to re-constitute the Twelve if they should all die simultaneously. (The Twelve could confer them at any time, I suppose; but historically I'm not sure such a conferral has ever actually happened.)

It's tricky.

Theoretically...no.  Theoretically...yes.

It is similar to what happened with Joseph Smith.  He was the Prophet and at the time he could make decisions on what was doctrine or not as THE PROPHET.

The Twelve apostles collectively had the same authority as he did.

Thus, when he died, they were collectively able to make the same decisions as he was.  This is why any revelation that is to be authoritative has, at least until the turn of the past century (so at least until 2000, probably even until now one hopes) any major revelation or things such as canonization HAD to be agreed upon unanimously by the Twelve apostles.

Now, if something (such as Blacks and the Priesthood) was not agreed upon unanimously the first presidency could keep everyone praying and praying and talking about it, but until a unanimous decision was agreed upon, it could not become something that was applicable as doctrine, scripture, or similar items.

History implies that this is the reason several items that were felt strongly by prophets in the past and were taught as such did not actually become revelations or things applied consistently through the decades to the church.

The first example would be what some would call the Adam-God Theory.  Brigham Young felt VERY strongly about this and felt that it was and should be doctrine.  However, there could never be a unanimity among the apostles and as such it was never agreed upon completely.  Thus, no matter how strongly Brigham pushed the matter, it did not become a set revelation for the church.

A second example would be Blacks and the Priesthood.  David O'Mckay was supposedly originally one who pushed very hard that he had received revelation to change this policy.  However, just like Young did not have a unanimous quorum behind him, neither did Mckay.  Thus, this did not change in the church while he was alive. 

On the otherhand, Spencer W. Kimball also had this inspiration and had the first presidency and the apostles pray about this.  Eventually even those who were most fervently against such an idea had the spirit change their hearts and it was agreed upon unanimously about this revelation.  Thus, the policy was changed.

Even though we have a prophet today, the idea that Joseph Smith talked about in regards to how the church should be led has stood for many decades and closing into two centuries.

Using this as an example, if the fifteen died, meaning the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve, the same authority should probably align within the council of the seventy.  With there being a larger number I imagine it could be tougher to get unanimity on some issues at times, but the idea that the Lord could still affect all of them via revelation and the spirit would still hold true.

In this they could possibly reform a group of the Twelve apostles and even a First Presidency and a Prophet, but for large revelations or changes they would probably then need to have a unanimous decision from both the Twelve and the Seventy instead of just the twelve as it is today.

It then would probably go before the rest of the church as it does today where a majority would also need to accept it for it to become accepted as canon if something was going to be added to the scriptures.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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Had Hyrum not died when Joseph did, he would have been prophet of the Church. He had the position of First Elder, by which he would have succeeded. It was due to this anomaly that the succession was contested by Rigdon et al.  Another fact was that Joseph, in a blessing ostensibl named a son as a successor as well  This son went on to lead the RLDS Church  

we LDS of course, believe that the succession contest was settled in the correct manner. 

Edited by mrmarklin

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On 3/8/2019 at 6:22 PM, Suzie said:

Are you looking for D&C 107: 25-26?

"25 The Seventy are also called to preach the gospel, and to be especial witnesses unto the Gentiles and in all the world—thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

26 And they form a quorum, equal in authority to that of the Twelve special witnesses or Apostles just named."

Yes, this is the scripture. 

 

Any reasonable intepretation seems to mean that in the  absence of the Twelve they have the same authority, just like the Twelve have in the absence of the Quorum of the First Presidency. 

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What an amazing moment. Two of the world’s religious leaders meeting for the first time and building on common ground.

I think the apostles and prophet are in safe hands for this historic event.

Hopefully this meeting strengthens the opportunity to continue working on efforts that revolve around common goals and objectives for the benefit of Heavenly Fathers children.

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On 3/8/2019 at 12:52 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

This is just amazing. https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900059369/entire-first-presidency-quorum-of-the-twelve-to-attend-rome-temple-dedication-mormon.html

The last time this occured was at the Nauvoo Dedication in 2002 and before that at the LA Temple Dedication in 1956. Very historic times for the Church.

Interesting...... reading now!
I have the feeling that this is important... and the prayers of Latter day Saints will alter the future of Rome.... and Jerusalem... and the whole world!

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On 3/9/2019 at 9:11 AM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Uchtdorf and Bednar would survive. Besides, Rome has very good security services with the Vatican there.

I thought we established they gave up on Bednarbot. The struggle to make it both accurate and realistic was beyond even Disney. 

Besides, I think they're really going to take on a Ninja Warrior course, with the losers having to convert to the winners' faith. 

Edited by NightSG

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