Another Utah influencer arrested, or, pride cycles

[Backroads]

I won't go into the major details or news, it's easily looked up, but it's got me thinking about the whole notion of pride cycles. I believe this is something that wheels itself throughout history with no particular respect to people or creed and all are potentially susceptible.

But particular to the case, this influencer, by all accounts, is or was a member of our church and the situation seems pretty awful. I know enough wonderful members of the church to not buy into the popular meme "Those Mormons are so awful!" social media would tout, but I can't help there may be some legitimate connection.

I don't believe in prosperity gospel nor do I observe it in our teachings in any way. What I do see is the very good instructions of provident living, using our skills, hard work, etc. And I believe this can be twisted into prosperity gospel. Not so much "I'm rich because God loves me" but "I worked and was successful and now I'm rich and therefore I have all these blessings to show off so I must be a wonderful blessed person."

I think we're seeing it. Maybe it's new, maybe it's easier to spot, but I feel people, even within something good like the church, are getting too comfortable with  their fame/wealth/success and become untouchable, unable to do no wrong and thus anything they do is right. It's better to pursue the glory of the world but of course it's not for the glory of the world because they are Good People.

Perhaps it's just more obvious to watch the mighty fall but I've seen it at lesser states. Desire to support one's family, be self-sufficient, demonstrate hard work... And get far too caught up in it. I once read a book that spoke of all the Good Things that can ultimately become golden idols. But because they're good things, people may not want to recognize it.

So, after all this rambling, pride cycles appear to be far easier to fall into than we might think. Pretty easy to blame the Nephites and say "never us." Heck, I worry I'm doing it to myself by over-wondering about people.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Backroads

[scottyg]

I do agree with what you wrote, as I too have neighbors that take things too far, and it leads them down a path of pride, and eventual distancing from the church. One of them has left because he thinks we aren't doing enough to worship the Lord, and he has found a better way on his own. It actually started with him taking the word of wisdom to very far extremes. On the other hand, perhaps I over-wonder about others too much as well.

That being said, tying up your children with duct tape and allowing them to become emaciated with non-healing open wounds is about as far as you can get from true gospel teachings. It's just plain evil, and I believe these folks simply used the faith as a cover for their scheme, because unfortunately, our church is full of ignorant patsies. It is no different than any other industry using shady sales tactics, and anyone who uses the church or gospel in any way, no matter how small, to further their business interests of any kind immediately gets a red flag in my book. These are truly disgusting people that hopefully get what they deserve. They are not extreme members, because they never were good members to begin with. I don't care what good things their friends or neighbors have to say in their defense - this is no small mistake on their part. This is who they are. They have no testimony of the church or gospel. If they did, they wouldn't have treated their children this way as the two cannot go hand in hand. Can they change, sure. But right now, they are evil.

(I used to be a pediatric nurse, so I acknowledge a potential bias towards those in cases where child abuse is present.)

[Backroads]

55 minutes ago, scottyg said:

I do agree with what you wrote, as I too have neighbors that take things too far, and it leads them down a path of pride, and eventual distancing from the church. One of them has left because he thinks we aren't doing enough to worship the Lord, and he has found a better way on his own. It actually started with him taking the word of wisdom to very far extremes. On the other hand, perhaps I over-wonder about others too much as well.

That being said, tying up your children with duct tape and allowing them to become emaciated with non-healing open wounds is about as far as you can get from true gospel teachings. It's just plain evil, and I believe these folks simply used the faith as a cover for their scheme, because unfortunately, our church is full of ignorant patsies. It is no different than any other industry using shady sales tactics, and anyone who uses the church or gospel in any way, no matter how small, to further their business interests of any kind immediately gets a red flag in my book. These are truly disgusting people that hopefully get what they deserve. They are not extreme members, because they never were good members to begin with. I don't care what good things their friends or neighbors have to say in their defense - this is no small mistake on their part. This is who they are. They have no testimony of the church or gospel. If they did, they wouldn't have treated their children this way as the two cannot go hand in hand. Can they change, sure. But right now, they are evil.

(I used to be a pediatric nurse, so I acknowledge a potential bias towards those in cases where child abuse is present.)

I suppose I was wondering how far things can go before you have that dramatic twist and tie up your children. I've been following the Daybell murder case and it kind of seems that, once, those people were decent people as far as anyone could tell. But I may be cynical enough to say one was probably never that good of a person if they were able to fall to such extremes from where they allegedly were. 

On a less famous note, I have a cousin who had a trouble childhood. My aunt was very good in the gospel. She's passed away, and I like to hope the mental illnesses that ruined her kids' lives have been healed. Anyway, the one cousin was into all sorts of trouble and eventually was put in foster care with an "upstanding family of the church". Abuse apparently ran rampant there, the bishop wouldn't believe anything because he was friends with the family, and my cousin wound up running away from there, never to be seen again until we had the brilliant idea of Facebook search her (this was back in the day). 

Yes, I think I agree with you. The church (and I'll say that for any church or good group) can be a shockingly great way to hide not just your issues but actual crimes. 

[NeuroTypical]

4 hours ago, Backroads said:

I won't go into the major details or news, it's easily looked up, but it's got me thinking about the whole notion of pride cycles. I believe this is something that wheels itself throughout history with no particular respect to people or creed and all are potentially susceptible.

But particular to the case, this influencer, by all accounts, is or was a member of our church and the situation seems pretty awful.

 

I'm a big fan of pulling evil out of the darkness where it hides, out into the light where everyone can see it.

News article with some good links to sources: https://variety.com/2023/digital/news/ruby-franke-arrested-aggravated-child-abuse-1235710571/

Both Ruby Franke and her business partner Jodi Hildebrandt, were arrested and both were charged with two counts of “aggravated child abuse – intentionally or knowingly".  

Sometimes, the face of evil looks like an active happy Latter Day Saint woman, happily posting away on Instagram and blessing the world with good tips on parenting.

 

This is why I don't do human heroes.  (Other than Mr. Rogers, whose last episode aired 22 years ago yesterday, btw.)

 

[Backroads]

I'm trying to figure out where the husband is in all this.

[scottyg]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I'm a big fan of pulling evil out of the darkness where it hides, out into the light where everyone can see it.

100%

[Traveler]

It may appear from many of my past posts that I am anti wealth.  Though that is not exactly true – it is not far from the truth.  I am anti to the narcissist use or attitude of wealth.   I grew up in the home of an extremely wealthy individual that believed wealth should not be flaunted – especially on children.   When I turned 8 – I was expected to hold a job, (outside of the home – household chores did not count) earn money to purchase my clothing and pay for my activities – including my share of family vacations. 

I thought we were poor.  Our home was modest and one of the smallest in the area.  We added additions that was built exclusively by my father, siblings and myself.  I had among my chores to help dig the foundations, mix cement in a wheelbarrow for the foundations, lay block, frame, electrical, plumbing, sheetrock and paint or whatever.  This was done in stages starting when I was about 10 – often working late into the night, even in winter.  Often our friends helped – but there was no money payout.

We also raised rabbits and chickens for meat and supplemented meat hunting and fishing.  The vast majority of our food storage (double the church suggested 2 year supply) was home canned (bottled) and part of our fall family activity.  Seldom was food purchased at a store.  There was one family car – older and beat up from hunting trips – repairs we did ourselves. 

If we could not find employment my father owned several apartment complexes and he always had work for us.  Never did my father provide a couple of extra $$$ for a date or something.  If we ever needed money, he would supply the job to earn it.

Partly because of the manner in which I was raised – I do not have attachments, especially to things and again especially to things that can be purchased.  I am very skeptical of a showing of things.  The show of houses, cars, clothing and things.  I am skeptical of working for or being stuck at a job because of the need for money.  I am also skeptical of those that complain because they cannot earn enough money (with the exception of those that are handicapped, or suffering loses beyond their control (natural disasters).

I also believe in the idea that “Time heals all wounds and wounds all heels.”

 

The Traveler

[Suzie]

I just hope the children don't end up with their father. Atrocious parents!

Edited September 2, 2023 by Suzie

[Just_A_Guy]

I want to offer a cautionary note here, gleaned from hard experience both personal and professional:

Many people like this, actually deeply love the Gospel (as they understand it).  They search their scriptures.  They take fastidious notes at conference.  They pray for hours, and think they receive revelations; some of them very beautiful and moving.  But it goes in a weird direction, and suddenly they start thinking they’re getting better revelation than the mainstream Church; better revelation than their local priesthood leaders.  We will be seeing more of this, not less, in coming decades; and the Church will not always be quick to hold membership councils for people who deserve it.  

Guys, stay humble.  Stick with your priesthood authorities—from the Prophet down to your elders quorum president.  Do. Not. Let. Go.  A lot of tragedies could have and would have been avoided if some of Mormonism’s most infamous psychopaths of the past five years had stayed a little closer to, been more patient with, and considered with more humility the counsel of their bishops and stake presidents.

[Backroads]

10 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I want to offer a cautionary note here, gleaned from hard experience both personal and professional:

Many people like this, actually deeply love the Gospel (as they understand it).  They search their scriptures.  They take fastidious notes at conference.  They pray for hours, and think they receive revelations; some of them very beautiful and moving.  But it goes in a weird direction, and suddenly they start thinking they’re getting better revelation than the mainstream Church; better revelation than their local priesthood leaders.  We will be seeing more of this, not less, in coming decades; and the Church will not always be quick to hold membership councils for people who deserve it.  

Guys, stay humble.  Stick with your priesthood authorities—from the Prophet down to your elders quorum president.  Do. Not. Let. Go.  A lot of tragedies could have and would have been avoided if some of Mormonism’s most infamous psychopaths of the past five years had stayed a little closer to, been more patient with, and considered with more humility the counsel of their bishops and stake presidents.

Stuff like this is why I won't go near the lds freedom forum.

[Backroads]

12 hours ago, Suzie said:

I just hope the children don't end up with their father. Atrocious parents!

I saw a headline saying he was trying to keep the kids together. Dude, where were you? 

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, Backroads said:

Stuff like this is why I won't go near the lds freedom forum.

That was once a great site.  Sadly it turned into a cesspool of apostasy.

[The Folk Prophet]

The pride cycle is a symptom (or indicator) more than a cause.

[Vort]

3 hours ago, mirkwood said:

That was once a great site.  Sadly it turned into a cesspool of apostasy.

Discontent leading to apostasy comes from all directions. I have probably seen as many people I care about go off the rails on the side of "freedom fighters" as I have seen go off on the side of wokeism.

[Backroads]

16 minutes ago, Vort said:

Discontent leading to apostasy comes from all directions. I have probably seen as many people I care about go off the rails on the side of "freedom fighters" as I have seen go off on the side of wokeism.

When I wax on about weird parents at my school, my husband is often surprised to hear about the ones that seem to definitely be more on the freedom fighter side. I think we get more of them as we're an online charter, but they're their own brand of crazy.

[prisonchaplain]

There is far too much questioning of leadership and second-guessing. So many Christian churches lost members and adherents because the pastor was thought to be too acquiescent to government mask mandates, or not diligent enough in promoting them. The cliche "holier than thou," is an actual thing. There are many people who believe they are holier than church leadership. 

On the other hand, we are all commanded to exercise the Spirit's gift of discernment. How often is a decision made and members are asked to signify if the Holy Spirit has confirmed the decision to them? I'm old enough to remember the tragedy of the People's Temple (Rev. Jim Jones) tragedy. For those unaware, he took about 1,000 members from his California church and set up Jonestown, in Guyana. Nearly a year later they were all dead--having committed mass suicide. The phrase, "Don't drink the Kool Aide" literally came from that tragedy. Sadly, more than a year earlier Jim Jones was preaching in his church. He said, "I want you to be gods as I am God. I tell you; I am God Almighty God!" After proclaiming this heresy, a lady towards the back (I heard the actual recording) said, "Amen! Praise Jesus!"

Humility is the answer. Generally, submitting to authority is appropriate. However, the ultimate humility is to obey the Holy Spirit.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

Sadly, more than a year earlier Jim Jones was preaching in his church. He said, "I want you to be gods as I am God. I tell you; I am God Almighty God!" 

Is it any wonder that members of other Christian sects are scandalized by the LDS belief in (for want of a better term) the deification of man? Yet the idea has existed throughout the history of Christianity, being a fairly obvious extension of bedrock Christian beliefs. But most people had the good sense to keep the idea private and discuss it only among those to whom the idea was not offensive. At this point, the cat is 180 years out of the bag, but perhaps we should learn not to cast our pearls before swine by parading certain sacred beliefs and practices before an unbelieving world, including an unbelieving non-LDS Christianity.

[prisonchaplain]

I may not agree with the LDS teaching about the deification of faithful believers, but I would not compare it with Jones' assertion. He called himself God Almighty God, and intimated that the path to deification was to follow Jones. 

[LDSGator]

On 9/1/2023 at 12:17 PM, NeuroTypical said:

This is why I don't do human heroes. 

I still do. I accept that people are human and will disappoint you, sometimes in serious ways. Misanthropy isn’t the answer though. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

Hatred/dislike/mistrust of humanity seems to cover an awful lot of ground.  I don't hate anyone, I can find ways to love just about everyone.  I trust humans to act like humans.  I guess you could call that mistrust, but the word always seemed a bit wonky for me.

Anyway, I'm off to rage into the night because I wanted to be a burning man this year.  

[zil2]

6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Anyway, I'm off to rage into the night because I wanted to be a burning man this year.  

Well, it's only September, lots of the year left...  But setting yourself on fire would be extremely painful, and we'd miss you, so please call a suicide hotline instead!

[prisonchaplain]

11 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Well, it's only September, lots of the year left...  But setting yourself on fire would be extremely painful, and we'd miss you, so please call a suicide hotline instead!

Actually, assuming @NeuroTypical is not suicidal, this would have been the least dangerous year to go full burning man with little actual harm:  

[zil2]

3 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Actually, assuming @NeuroTypical is not suicidal, this would have been the least dangerous year to go full burning man with little actual harm:  

Looks like mud man to me.

[LDSGator]

31 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Anyway, I'm off to rage into the night because I wanted to be a burning man this year.  

 

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I wanted to be a burning man this year.

lol autocorrect.   At.   I wanted to be at burning man this year.