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I hope the situation IS fake. If it isn't there is a family and a ward with major issues. Unfortunately there are people who like to play off of perceived "peculiarities" of the LDS and try to cause trouble. It is terrible because it gets in the way of honest communication and learning. I have grown from animosity to love towards Mormons in my months here. Not that I'd ever convert- I just have a greater understanding and appreciation for them as individuals and I can't wait for my hubby to find a job in Utah.

Am I the only one who finds this story a bit over the top as it goes on? Seems someone's getting played and maybe not the bishop

By the way, there's a great story of President Kimball helping his missionary son come to terms with "know" vs "believe". The entire chapter is worth a good read (and a better ponder).

Hobomidget, You can hold whatever opinion you want, you can do whatever you what. What you don't get to do is selectively choose your consequence, nor do you get to force others to agree with you. If there is someone who chooses to use medical MJ for their condition that is their choice and right. However if their bishop is of the understanding that medical MJ breaks the word of wisdom. Then the bishop has every right not to sign off on a recommend for that person and potentially restrict other church worthiness related things. He is the gatekeeper that is his job, the medical MJ user has no right to expect his desires and understanding to trump the bishops. That person could appeal to the Stake President (Who could override the Bishop) but that is it, barring a more official church policy being given.

Is there a limit on how much we can post in one post? :)

Yet we don't know if the OP is not legit so let's assume that it is and move on.

As a new missionary in the LTM (Language Training Mission, now the MTC), I was learning the discussions and came to where we testify to the investigator: "I testify to you in the name of Jesus Christ that Joseph Smith saw Jesus Christ and God the Father". I had to stop and think, could I actually testify in the name of Christ to the truthfulness of the Joseph Smith vision and other aspects of the Gospel? This was serious. I couldn't just spout off the words if I didn't actually know if they were true. To me, testifying in the name of Jesus Christ meant more than just belief. It meant, I needed to know! And, I needed more than just the faith and belief that I had. Had I in the past had a strong spiritual witness of the truthfulness of what I was about to teach investigators? And, I couldn't think of any. At the time I was relying on belief and faith. I got down on my knees and prayed for a strong spiritual witness. I explained to Father in Heaven that if I was going to testify in the name of Christ to His investigators, that I needed more than belief and faith. I needed to know. It took more than one prayer. It took a lot of tears and humility on my part. But, I got my spiritual witness. To this day I cannot deny that witness. And, I was able to go out into the mission field with more than faith and belief. I was able to go out in the field with knowledge. I was able to testify in the name of Jesus Christ of the truthfulness of the Gospel, and of the truthfulness of Joseph Smith's vision. For those who have never received a spiritual witness from the Holy Ghost, they may never understand how one can say "I know". But, if you have received that witness, then you understand and it's undeniable.

I responded cos I wanted to touch on a couple thoughts but I had no doubts from the get-go this was bogus. I actually saw a similar post on FB... Might be a circulating phony story amongst some disgruntled members... Or just a troll having fun :)

I agree with him, but I also think he should shut up about it and not declare it across the pulpit. I believe most people do believe and very few know, but I'm not going to tell them which word they ought to use.

Pres. Uchtdorf argues that the restoration is ongoing: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/04/are-you-sleeping-through-the-restoration?lang=eng

My children will never know the joy of climbing freely around the car, over seat, under sister/brother, whilst mom and dad cruise it down the freeway joyously seat-belt free. Okay...cynicism a bit there. I do think the car-seat thing has gone a bit far though now-a-days. I do support car-seats and seatbelts, however. :)

On my mission, an anti presented the same question (he was Christian himself). He asked the question, "Why do you suggest to say "I know" when you actually act in faith, a hope?" We explained ourselves, and he rebuttled. I thought it interesting when his rebuttles ended, knowing he was Christian, when confronted with his own beliefs as we stated, "We know Joseph Smith is a prophet as we know Jesus is the Christ." He didn't have much to say after this, because he himself would not consider his "belief" a mere whim, a mere hope, but knowledge that there is an afterlife. I went through period where I felt similar to Mordorbund, and my testimony would be simple statements of fact. God lives. He is our father.... As of now, I would disagree with the young man, because the purpose of the Holy Ghost is supply us with knowledge, truth. Once revealed by the Holy Ghost, we have been given knowlege, not just a mere belief. Through experience we are provided other witnesses to clarify and increase what we have already received. I now use both simple statements of facts along with "I know." Otherwise, how are we to interpret Moroni 10: 3-5, "by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may KNOW the truth of all things"? We are informed that a sure witness from the Holy Ghost is more powerful (maybe not correct word) than a visit from the Savior himself, or a visit from an angel. I know, not believe, that prayers are answered. As to why some are answered and some are not...still learning, but I do know prayers are answered. I don't blame the young missionary because he was speaking from his knowledge, and I would agree from his knowledge, he is possibly only in a "believing" stage in his life.

Spending all day outside exploring without adult supervision. We were sent out to play and we came home for lunch and dinner. We had fun. We never thought of danger. I feel so bad for kids now. It's all structured activities or video games. Spontaneous play and exploration seem to be a thing of the past.

I hope the first thing your Bishop does is help you get over hating yourself. From statistics I have seen, masturbation is likely one of the most common "sins" we are guilty of. In this day and age, porn use is also very common. Neither sin is anything to "hate yourself" over. You are not perverted, hypersexual, gross, disgusting, or any other form of bad. You have succumbed to a "temptation that is common to man" (1 Cor 10:13). I would encourage you to talk to your bishop and work on developing a healthy and proper relationship with your sexuality.

Mikey, you may be getting frustrated because people aren't coming out with lists such as, "He'll likely do X, Y, or Z". Pam has touched on why people aren't able to give such lists with confidence, because it depends on multiple things, but there is a degree of danger in us just blindly speculating. If say Pam or Estradling pipped up with, "He'll likely do X, or Y" and your Bishop does in fact do Z you may be inclined to feel that since Z is less desirable, from your perspective, than X or Y that your Bishop is being unreasonable. After all, you asked about online and the consensus was X or Y, not Z! You may immediately object with, "I'm not that silly! I understand that these are just in the dark suggestions offered by people divorced from the realities involved.", but folks who have been on the site long enough know to be wary. We have seen people come and complain that because, based on what other people have told them (most likely with the best of intentions), that their Bishop is being unreasonable because he's doing Z and not the expected X or Y. So while it may be frustrating for you, understand people like Pam or Estradling aren't trying to be frustrating or unhelpful, they just don't want to accidentally undermine your Bishop.

No, they're asterisked from the Rainbow Brite paragraph. Hence the separation from the main body of text. :)

Since you are asking from a position of fear... lets talk about what will not happen. You will not be kicked out of the church. You will not be laughed at. You will not be publicly humiliated. You will not be told you are a horrible person. While we can not tell you details of what will happen, in general your bishop will listen and learn about what you are struggling with. Then he will recommend certain actions and changes for you to make to help you overcome your issues. Then he will follow up to offer encouragement and support as needed.

When the keys were restored. I don't have time but I will read that talk by Elder Uchtdorf when I get a chance.

Did you know that 12 states require all parties to consent to the recording of a conversion? Without such consent such a recording breaks the law an opens up the person to legal action

Shepard: I'm sorry to say that you've not handled this situation productively at all--even if this girl is just a scheming manipulator (and heaven help you all if she's actually right and the bishop really is a pedophile). Family therapy, my friend. ASAP.

Satellite tv. I don't need it but I like having it. Most would say even internet is a luxury. For me it's a necessity as it's how I make my living. I have very few luxuries in life. Going to the theater to see a movie is a luxury to me.

When the Priesthood was restored. So what are we missing with the ten tribes? I don't think that has anything to do with the restoration.

As far as the distinction goes, while I can understand making the distinction if one wants to discuss things in philosophical, theological, or technical contexts, using know to mean "something I really strongly believe to be the case" is accepted English usage of the word. So, even given his premise that nobody knows things in a gospel context, in the sense he means, he's objecting to standard English usage, just because it's the second definition provided by Merriam-Webster ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/know ) doesn't make it incorrect. Generally when you find people arguing over if someone can claim they know something spiritual you've got someone who is arguing a connotative definition with you, and connotative definitions are highly experience, context, and culture dependent.

I wonder if it's okay to ask for traveling prayers in this thread? I tried last week to fly standby from SLC to Portland Oregon to be with my husband. (He works away from home). Out of 4 flights I couldn't get on any of them...so I am trying again. Only this time I am not flying standby so will for sure make the flight...but, appreciate traveling safety prayers. Thanks. I wonder if I should have posted this somewhere else?

I am not worked up with either phrase.....you either do or you don't. If the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith was a prophet it all falls into place. You can either believe it or you might know it. All I want to know is regardless of which phrase you use....I want to know how you found out.

Agreed. Bogus.

To be fair, I'm not sure the entire list was meant as a punishment, but rather a laying down of the law, including punishments. But I agree with your thoughts. I think a more important issue is that punishment of this nature is unlikely to fix the problem. I'm not expert on raising teenagers, but it seems to me that this approach may increase the rebellious attitude, rather than help it to improve, which I believe is part of your point. If having FHE is viewed as a punishment in response to misbehavior it's hardly likely to teach a love of FHE.

I don't think there is anything wrong with taking a time out for yourself. If you are wore to the bone...what good are you in doing anything for anyone be it Sunday or any other day. You have to rejuvenate for the coming week too. I am not sure I understand the question either. Are you thinking if you have other family around it is easier to keep active doing Sabbath day things? Cause sometimes I am so exhausted with the whole family being here that I HAVE to take a nap... I just excuse myself and do what I need to do...only to come out of my room to find out that everyone else is napping on the couch, chairs, and anywhere else they can find to have a rest time. I don't believe there is a thing wrong with taking time out on Sunday.

Points and actions are distinctly different.

Are there any you are supporting?

Okay... Still not supporting a lot of your daughter's actions. Also not agreeing with a lot of your bishop's comments. Get the stake president involved pronto.

Well, for one thing, as I discovered recently, the sacrifice of animals. Some other things are questionable, for example, polygamy and the law of consecration. Does the fact that they were restored count as restored before the end, or do all things restored have to be currently in place before the end? Even if the first is true, I don't know that the law of consecration counts as having been fully restored. ?? I'd have to do more thinking and research to come up with anything else.

Just thought I'd chime in. I took a metaphysics class last semester and one of the things my professor made sure to hammer into us was that a metaphysical fact (like God) is just as true as a scientific fact, even if it is metaphysical and not part of the sciences. And not to go too off topic, but it totally agree with your view on justice requiring God. C.S. Lewis makes that point in Mere Christianity. If there is a natural law or objective truth (which I'd argue there are), someone needed to create it.

Perhaps it was, but I tend to give people a bit of leeway in interviews, since they often don't know ahead of time exactly what they'll be asked, and I know for me, the answer I give to a question right off the top of my head is often not exactly what I'd say if given more time to think of my answer.

This family is amazing. I listened to an interview with the mother on another podcast, and her family went through some serious cr@p in her previous ward after her son came out, so much so that they had their records transferred to a different one to escape the drama. (things like, people refusing to accept the Sacrament from her gay son, even though the Bishop had declared him worthy to pass it, parents demanding that her husband be released from his calling with the Youth because he might be a "bad influence" since he was supportive of his son, etc. Lots of contention) Those kinds of attitudes are what they're trying to "change". Actions speak louder than words, and I think sometimes the hurtful, judgmental actions of some members speak louder than the message of love coming from the top. I think they're embracing the old addage of "be the change you want to see in the world" (or ward, in this case). She bares her testimony in the podcast I listened to, so there is definitely more to their being members than just wanting to change things from the inside.

Like classylady, I too never really saw my parents be physically intimate. Nor did we ever talk about the birds-and-the-bees (and the very idea of such a talk filled me with mortified embarrassment). My teachers at church also didn't talk about their married relations, for obvious reasons. So I never got a idea of what "good" sexuality was like. Instead, I saw/heard disgusting/stupid things about sexuality from teenagers in public high school. Seckuar teachers were mute on the subject and I didn't talk to my folks. Church teachers said "Don't do that" and I said "DUH!!". I watched so many of my friends get terribly burned by sexual mistakes, and I graduated high school with zero desire to ever go 'there'. I knew that someday my husband and I would have sex... but that day was so distant. How was I to know what "married healthy sexuality" looked like? What did it feel like? How do you find it? I had no idea, and I wasn't sure I wanted to know— every passing year I saw misused sexuality hurt my friends get hurt more. I was afraid. That's one way how "good girl syndrome" can come about.

I don't understand what the question/problem is. First of all, what does living alone have to do with it? Second....whether it's the sabbath or another day, if you are too tired to function, what's wrong with taking a nap or going to bed?

Is there anything you've done from childhood onward, that you still believe in, that you'd be willing to 180 on for a month... As an experiment? Such as - wearing underwear - using silverware - not picking your nose in public - shaving your legs - ? I'm picking morally ambivalent habits, here. But, even so, you will find it EXTREMELY WEIRD to go commando, eat without implements, talk to the mailman while picking your nose, or whatever action you choose. You'll also find yourself forgetting to do so. Changing something you don't even think about anymore, that's pure habit... Generally takes about 7 years. But... Imagine if it IS a moral imperative you've practiced from childhood onward? Somehting you associate with being a Good Man? I'm not going to suggest you DO any of these.... But reflect on if you were asked now to - kick puppies - slap your wife across the face - not allow your children to eat - etc. Could you do any of those things on a daily basis? Weekly? Monthly? It doesn't matter hat after 20-30 years of doing X that we TELL ourselves X is no longer the right thing, Y is the right thing... For some, X has become both habit and ingrained into their self worth. Which generally means 7+ years to change the old way of thinking/believing ... If ever. Q

None of us have heard the audio recording. We don't know if the questions being asked were out of line. Was the Bishop digging deeper into the details because he was a perv? Or did he need to dig a little deeper to decide if some disciplinary action was required. We've always been taught that conversations with the Bishop remain confidential. Most Bishops respect that aspect of their calling. Your daughter betrayed him with her recording and sharing of the audio. If she really was concerned she could have taken it to you as parents. Not share it around the school to get a few laughs. Yeh something wrong with the daughter here. I actually feel for the Bishop here.

+1 to everything you've said here. If this was my daughter, she'd be in so much trouble! I would not be concerned about the bishop -- I'd be focused entirely on her manipulation. I'd also be concerned about where/how she's learning such detail that she can just spout off extemporaneously.

I'll be blunt. Something is seriously wrong in this situation and it's not the bishop. Your child has some serious issues that if not resolved now will lead to misery down the road. Obviously this teenager is quite frankly rebellious and is playing you like a fiddle. You are more upset at the bishop for asking for details, rather than being more upset at your daughter for a) deceiving the bishop and actually explaining "tawdry fornications". I can only imagine what that might be, if it goes beyond just "having sex". I think I might be more upset at any of my kids for making up such stuff, actually feeling comfortable explaining such stuff to an adult (especially a religious leader when it didn't happen) than doing it. At least if they did it, they could say they got caught up in emotions, etc. But planning something like that shows a complete lack of respect for authority, religion, and a total disregard for the actual sin of fornication. If she feels comfortable talking about it now . . . there is very little doubt in my mind that later on it won't be just talk. Again, I'm going to be perfectly blunt, you need to wake up and take control . . .and even if you do now it might be too late.

Our garage was super infested, so bad we wouldn't go in there. we saterated them with pure extract the threw them in, like everywhere...we probobly over did out of being paranoid, but we didnt care. They left. No joke. makeing a huge nest. they left simply from the pepermint. Traps didn't get rid of them cuz there were too many, but the pepermint worked. We got rid of just about everything in that garage, after they were gone. (thank goodness they never came in the house!! )

It could be worse. It could be bats:

DOn't know about rats, but mice hate pepermint. Totally worked in our garage a few years back...put pepermint on cotton balls and put them everywhere. Mice didn't come back.

When we very first had mice, I picked her up to show one to her as it scuttled around the kitchen counter one day, terrified because we were there, but not wanting to make the dash to safety (unfortunately, it wasn't anywhere near a trap). But I held her so she could see it, and see that they were nothing scary. I explained that most people get startled when they see a mouse, and that mice are dirty and carry diseases, so she shouldn't ever touch one -- dead or alive* -- but that she didn't need to be scared of them. It seems to have worked. But this story also reminds me of when she started "playing" Minecraft with her dad. She was sitting on his lap one day, and I turned around with a quizzical look when I heard her say, "It's okay, little baby zombie! We'll find your mommy and daddy! Daddy, look at the zombie...isn't it so cuuuute??" *Obviously pets would be an exception here, but since I don't plan to ever keep rodents as pets, I didn't make this distinction to her.

Yeah, our then-three-year-old was very enamored of Cinderella when we were going through the Great Mouse Infestation of '11. One morning shortly after Christmas (where she had gotten a little Cinderella playset complete with Jaques and Gus), Just_A_Girl and I heard our little one saying "Oh! A little mouse! You can be my friend." We figured she was playing with her new toys but didn't really look. Then we heard "I think I will give you a kiss!" and turned around to behold the cuteness--just in time to see her holding a dead mouse, by the tail, drawing her face ever closer . . .

if you use good ol' fashioned traps, bait them with peanut butter, not cheese rodents are much smarter then we give them credit for and can set off the trap without getting hurt to get the cheese, peanut butter they cannot.

At the old place, we had mice. Turns out they were grabbing peaches and then sneaking into the garage to eat them. We fixed the grate to the garage, did poison, which apparently worked but we only found like 2 dead mice. I think if you can find where they are coming in from, you will solve the majority of the problem. Also, they have poison traps that are encased in big plastic boxes so other animals can't get to the poison.

You might hire an exterminator, who will know several ways of getting rid of rats without harming pets. You can't always do everything yourself.

Cats.