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40 minutes ago, pam said:

http://www.ldsliving.com/BYU-to-Offer-Caffeine-on-Campus/s/86442

BYU adding caffeinated drinks on campus.  

How long before they install a student bar? (A college without a student bar still seems very strange to me - but this is boozy England.)

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Just now, Jamie123 said:

How long before they install a student bar? (A college without a student bar still seems very strange to me - but this is boozy England.)

That will never happen at BYU.

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At the risk of injecting a serious comment into a decidedly non-serious thread: I wish BYU hadn't done this. It looks like capitulation, and intentionally or not, sends the message that there's nothing wrong with drinking caffeinated soft drinks. Now, I realize this is a bit ridiculous; the "soft drink" itself is nothing but tooth-rotting sugar water. But in general, caffeine is not a good thing to imbibe, so why start selling it? Adding a touch of dog poop into the horse poop sandwich doesn't improve the horse poop any, and it does run the risk of making people (especially young, impressionable, college-age people) think by inference that dog poop must be okay to eat.

Anyway, I think I understand why they did it. The constant hullabaloo that has been going on at BYU about caffeinated drinks on campus since, well, before I ever went there in the early 1980s distracts from the university's mission, which is not to root the evils of Coke or Mountain Dew out of the psyches of our precious young adults. But I still think it's a shame.

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26 minutes ago, Vort said:

At the risk of injecting a serious comment into a decidedly non-serious thread: I wish BYU hadn't done this. It looks like capitulation, and intentionally or not, sends the message that there's nothing wrong with drinking caffeinated soft drinks. Now, I realize this is a bit ridiculous; the "soft drink" itself is nothing but tooth-rotting sugar water. But in general, caffeine is not a good thing to imbibe, so why start selling it? Adding a touch of dog poop into the horse poop sandwich doesn't improve the horse poop any, and it does run the risk of making people (especially young, impressionable, college-age people) think by inference that dog poop must be okay to eat.

Anyway, I think I understand why they did it. The constant hullabaloo that has been going on at BYU about caffeinated drinks on campus since, well, before I ever went there in the early 1980s distracts from the university's mission, which is not to root the evils of Coke or Mountain Dew out of the psyches of our precious young adults. But I still think it's a shame.

I see what you're saying. But I think the poo analogy goes a bit far. And...I don't see any particular reason to not capitulate in this case. If the implementation of the policy was arbitrary, and the continuation of the policy was based on lack of demand, and demand has grown, then why not offer -- Oreos as an option or something because people want them. I'd dare say that caffeinated soda offers more nutritional benefit (in the water alone) than Oreos do.

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54 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Eh it's not that big of a deal. BYU sells ice cream, candy, and unhealthy meals too. Caffeinated soft drinks aren't good for you, but it's just another sweet treat, it's never been a big deal doctrinally. Moderation in all things is still a teaching we can apply here.

There is a bit of a difference between caffeine and sugar. Caffeine does absolutely nothing for you, it can only cause damage and addiction. Sugar, on the other hand, provides energy, which is good for you. Over consumption of one type of energy is bad for you hence why we don't really need any more in our diet.

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I would disagree somewhat @Fether. Just look at the obesity epidemic in the United States. Sugar can be just as addicting as caffeine, and can have severe long term consequences as well. Both require us to be moderate in our consumption. Neither of these substances are specifically banned by the Word of Wisdom, so it quite clearly falls under the provision of moderation in all things. 

Edited by Midwest LDS
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Guest LiterateParakeet
Just now, Midwest LDS said:

I would disagree somewhat @Fether. Just look at the obesity epidemic in the United States. Sugar can be just as addicting as caffeine, and can have severe long term consequences as well. Both require us to be moderate in our consumption. Neither of these substances are specifically banned by the Word of Wisdom, so it quite clearly falls under the provision of moderationnin all things.

Sugar is definitely addictive!  http://www.healthline.com/health/food-nutrition/experts-is-sugar-addictive-drug

However..."moderation in all things" is not in the WoW...just imagine, ALL things would mean moderation in alcohol too.  EeK!   I understand your point though.  As a general rule of thumb moderation is a good thing.  

However, if we truly believe sugar is addictive (and I do) then can we really claim it is okay in moderation?  That's a choice each person will have to make for themselves.  Personally, I can't eat it in moderation, so I stopped eating it at all.  I feel a lot better without it.  My hubby and kids still eat sugar; they seem to be able to handle it in moderation.  In that way, it is also like alcohol.  Not everyone that drinks alcohol becomes an alcoholic, some can handle it in moderation.  A big difference is alcohol is expressly prohibited by the WoW and sugar is not.  So sugar is personal choice, but I maintain that you will be healthier without it. :)  

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1 minute ago, LiterateParakeet said:

However, if we truly believe sugar is addictive (and I do) then can we really claim it is okay in moderation?  

That depends on whether lack of moderation is one of the keys of its addictiveness.

2 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Personally, I can't eat it in moderation, so I stopped eating it at all.   

Which, indeed, may be different for all.

3 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

 I feel a lot better without it. 

Which goes to how one establishes how they "feel" and priorities in that matter. (For example, I "feel" worse after a good work out. I hurt much more than I do before the work out. But I like that feeling...and could reasonably therefore say that I feel better after a workout).

4 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

So sugar is personal choice, but I maintain that you will be healthier without it. :)  

I think it safer to say that no one (I expect) is healthier with sugar than they are with out it. I can reasonably see certain metabolisms, mentalities, etc., who can consume now and again sugar without being any less healthy for it.

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@LiterateParakeet You're right it doesn't specifically mention moderation in the Word of Wisdom. I was thinking more of modern interpretation by our GA's such as President Faust in his April 2003 talk to the Young Women. In it he says "Part of the spirit of the Word of Wisdom is moderation in all things, except those things specifically forbidden by the Lord." Since sugar, or caffeine, or barbecued red meat isn't mentioned directly in the Word of Wisdom we should follow a policy of moderation. What that means to me is that we have to take each item not mentioned individually rather than collectively. You mentioned you can't eat sugar or it does bad things to you. Therefore you decided not to use it. You're husband and children don't have the same issues you do and so they have some once in a while. Everyone has to make their own decisions about substances not specifically mentioned by the Lord, in a way that does not lead to addiction or spiritual damage. To me what your family does with sugar is what I meant about caffeine. Some don't have adverse affects drinking it, others do and it's up to us individually to determine what is best in cases like that.

Edited by Midwest LDS
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Guest LiterateParakeet

@The Folk Prophet  we are on the same page.  You are right, "feelings" are so subjective.  How's this..

Since I got off sugar (which meant also giving up most processed foods--and to be fair I gave up dairy at the same time and cut way back on meat)....I've lost 65 lbs, my doctor took me off two meds, and my kidney function (I have kidney disease) is the best it's been in 10 years.  I feel like I have a second chance at life.  I attribute all this to giving up sugar, for the most part. :)  

But I acknowledge that moderation in sugar might be fine for some people.  

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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Guest LiterateParakeet
2 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

To me what your family does with sugar is what I meant about caffeine. Some don't have adverse affects drinking it, others do and it's up to us individually to determine what is best in cases like that.

I agree.  Although, no surprise, I also found caffeine to be highly addictive for me.   You know how they say children of alcoholics tend to become alcoholics?  Well, I guess LDS children of alcoholics tend to get addicted to any addictive substance they put in their mouths, LOL!

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1 hour ago, Fether said:

There is a bit of a difference between caffeine and sugar. Caffeine does absolutely nothing for you, it can only cause damage and addiction. Sugar, on the other hand, provides energy, which is good for you. Over consumption of one type of energy is bad for you hence why we don't really need any more in our diet.

Not quite.  Caffeine is a pain reliever.  Especially for muscle pain.  It is added to migraine medicine or ibuprofen/acetaminophen medications to boost its effectiveness.   If you take extra-strength pain relievers, chances are you are ingesting caffeine.   Caffeine dilates blood vessels and increases the heart rate which causes added oxygenation which also increases energy.  At the same time it blocks certain neuro transmitters that causes a dulling of pain.  While these neuro transmitters are blocked other transmitters are enhanced - like increased memory (hence the stereotypical Mountain Dew-drinking programmer).

Anyway, all chemicals have a positive and negative effect on the body.  Hence, caffeine, like any other, when used properly, can be beneficial to the body and promote healing.  But when used without regard for its properties can also be very harmful.

 

 

Edited by anatess2
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1 hour ago, Midwest LDS said:

I would disagree somewhat @Fether. Just look at the obesity epidemic in the United States. Sugar can be just as addicting as caffeine, and can have severe long term consequences as well. Both require us to be moderate in our consumption. Neither of these substances are specifically banned by the Word of Wisdom, so it quite clearly falls under the provision of moderation in all things. 

I'm not one to say "abstain from soda or you lose the spirit". But I do acknowledge that caffeine is a mind altering substance (even if it is just minor effects) and will never benefit our health under any circumstance.

Sugar on, the other hand, does benefit us. As long as it is in moderation. 

That is where my stance is.

I strongly believe that the overall health of BYU is going to diminish. Not to say everyone will be obese in 20 years, but health in general. No body needs caffeine.

Edited by Fether
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Guest MormonGator
3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Why is this a big deal?  Why was it originally banned?

Caffeine in Mormonism is more hotly debated than what color a yellow/blue dress on the internet ever will be.  

Edited by MormonGator
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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Caffeine in Mormonism is more hotly debated than what color a yellow/blue dress on the internet ever will be.  

I've seen that, but under which part of the WoW do people think is prohibited?

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I think it's a bad idea.  Caffeine was avoided for the same reason marijuana or other drugs are avoided to a degree.  Originally it was because the common thing tea and coffee had between them was caffeine.  Hence, it was assumed that to even avoid the "appearance of evil" one should avoid anything of the like, which would include caffeinated drinks...something we apparently have forgotten in these days and don't care whether we appear evil or not.

That aside, a more common reason today, is still the appearance of evil.  There is NOTHING that says one can't do marijuana in the Word of Wisdom itself, but we do not partake due to clarifications in many ways, as well as that entire "appearance of evil" adage.

The secondary reason to not include caffeine originally was because it causes division among the saints.  Some do not drink caffeine, others do.  When the church openly promotes caffeinated drinks, even though there are those who do not drink such because of their religion it is like trying to say the same thing as that LDS kid that smoked.  You tell them you don't smoke because you are LDS...and he comes back and says...soooo...I'm LDS too and I smoke.

Basically, it's a way to disarm someone's religion or religious reasons.

The REASON I see us being less strong on the caffeine over the past few decades is twofold.  First, there are several General Authorities that have caffeine addictions.  Rather hard for them to be against it when they openly drink it.

The Second reason is related to the first and not to discretely held.  A Major LDS leader was completely addicted to Diet Pepsi...having cases of it even.  It's probably one of the primary causes of his diabetes.  Even then, he still had to have the Diet Pepsi kick.  That sort of changes the dynamic when leaders of the church are heavily into caffeinated drinks that they'll keep on drinking it, even after it's caused a pretty harsh bodily reaction, and then against the advice of medical suggestions.

So, I see the change going on, which brings us closer to the world and makes it harder for those who DO ascribe to the no caffeine thing to follow the dictates of their religion when the religion may be actively advocating something else. 

So, how long until they start distributing marijuana on campus?

Or maybe we should start a little lighter and only offer cold coffee and cold tea (afterall, they won't be hot...right???) on campus.  I know several that drink Ice Tea or Green Tea drinks with that same type of reasoning.

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