Grunt

Faithful vs Less Faithful

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On 12/3/2018 at 4:20 AM, Grunt said:

I have a fondness for this forum as it played a big part in building my testimony.  However, the more I learn about the faith, the more frustrating this forum can be.

Having been on this forum for a short while I've noticed several types of posters:  

We have some VERY faithful and intelligent posters here.  Some know the doctrine inside and out.  Others just do their best to follow Christ.  While they debate opposite sides of some pretty interesting topics, they don't seem to be important to progression, just interesting topics.  

We have intelligent and thoughtful non-members who add opposing insight or confirming testimony.  They're respectful of our beliefs and I love reading their posts.

We have trolls, which I discount and ignore.

We have investigators and drivebys seeking answers to specific questions.

Then we have members of the Church who aren't active, challenge doctrine, are openly vocal in their opposition of church leaders at times, yet post as though they are authorities on topics of doctrine, often with misleading information.  At times they dance around what I consider apostasy.

This last group is what frustrates me.  I have a hard enough time as a new member absorbing doctrine and culture.  Some of my original understandings, that I received from this type of poster, has turned out to be quite false.   It's concerning and detracts from my spiritual growth.  Sadly, I'm sure that makes some of them happy.  

There's my semi-annual whining.

Yes!!!!  It's not just here though,  I was having mega doctrine overload, didn't know what was what or what to believe and so much information it made me very depressed! So... I went to the temple and prayed about it and came off the internet (for latter-day saint stuff) exception being deseret bookshelf app (which I pay a subscription to) and the Church website, Ensign etc..  Feel so much better :) I think I am defo in the do my best and follow Christ/ read popular feel good books popular Church books type and I am absolutely fine with that :) 

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On 12/3/2018 at 5:20 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

I need and want daily gospel discussion.

That's what's so great about this website. My coworkers and friends don't want to talk about the religious stuff. Even some guys from church I occasionally hang out with don't want to talk about the gospel. I tried bringing up some of the lighter topics like addressing why the church is so meaningful to me, but this one guy's eyes glazed over real quick on that one. So yeah, this website is great to connect with other people who have the same interest in discussing gospel themed topics. Where else can you discuss the gospel so freely with like minded individuals all over the US and other parts of the world? 

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4 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

That's what's so great about this website. My coworkers and friends don't want to talk about the religious stuff. Even some guys from church I occasionally hang out with don't want to talk about the gospel. I tried bringing up some of the lighter topics like addressing why the church is so meaningful to me, but this one guy's eyes glazed over real quick on that one. So yeah, this website is great to connect with other people who have the same interest in discussing gospel themed topics. Where else can you discuss the gospel so freely with like minded individuals all over the US and other parts of the world? 

I love the discussions here as well.

If we agreed on everything, this place would be incredibly boring. 

 

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11 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So...the Celestial Kingdom is incredibly boring?

I don't know, haven't been there.

I've have heard insinuation from prophets that there will be a LOT of work.  That we may be creating worlds, organizing solar systems, creating families, and setting up whole passages of scriptures and direction for our children.  On top of that I've heard that we might also continue to learn and grow in our understanding.

That seems like it could take a massive amount of time.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like we may be incredibly busy if their ideas are correct.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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13 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

So...the Celestial Kingdom is incredibly boring?

Depends on what you mean.

If we inherit the Celestial Kingdom we will constantly be involved in fighting evil.  Not boring.

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I don't know, haven't been there.

I've have heard insinuation from prophets that there will be a LOT of work.  That we may be creating worlds, organizing solar systems, creating families, and setting up whole passages of scriptures and direction for our children.  On top of that I've heard that we might also continue to learn and grow in our understanding.

That seems like it could take a massive amount of time.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like we may be incredibly busy if their ideas are correct.

 

32 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Depends on what you mean.

If we inherit the Celestial Kingdom we will constantly be involved in fighting evil.  Not boring.

Depends on what I mean?!?

I was responding to mormongator's statement that if everyone agrees it's boring.

Isn't it obvious that "what I mean" is that his statement is silly, that boredom is in the eye of the beholder, and even the implication that lack of boredom is some kind of virtue to be sought after doesn't actually make sense?

Did you guys even read the exchange? Or were you really incapable of inferring the obvious point from it?

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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15 hours ago, MormonGator said:

If we agreed on everything, this place would be incredibly boring.

So you're saying the Celestial Kingdom will be boring?  (Sorry, but I had to point out that agreement does not, of necessity, lead to "boring".)

[ I wrote the above before @The Folk Prophet posted his reply, and then decided not to post it.  Now it seems like it needs to be posted (hooray for the editor remembering what you wrote).  Not only will the people in the Celestial Kingdom agree, they will be one.  I'm pretty sure you don't get more agreed than that.  And I'm pretty sure they won't be bored.  And unlike what @JohnsonJones wrote, and yes, some in history have said, I agree with Elder Maxwell - there will come a time when the residents of the Celestial Kingdom will all be omniscient - no longer learning - and their progress will be in the form of execution, not education.  And I'm in agreement with Nibley, they won't find this repetition boring in the least. ]

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Depends on what I mean?!?

I was responding to mormongator's statement that if everyone agrees it's boring.

"Depends on what you mean" was an expression of my belief that I believed you and Gator were talking about two different applications and possibly definitions of "boredom".

Gator's comment, if I can speak for him, is about mortals who are not all-knowing.  The Celestial Kingdom will be people who are all-knowing or are learning directly from those who are all-knowing.  Completely different scenarios.

Perhaps a longer phrase of his statement would be

Quote

It would not be as profitable to have conversations with other ignorant mortals who are emotional, mental, and spiritual clones of ourselves.

 But he thought

Quote

It would be awfully boring

 to be a concise way of putting that.

You yourself said that you profit from daily gospel discussion.  Would it be so profitable if we all came here to say the exact same things?  You never said that.  That's just an extreme example.  Absolutely true. Just an example.

I don't think Gator ever meant the extremity you posited either.  

Edited by Carborendum

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13 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

"Depends on what you mean" was an expression of my belief that I believed you and Gator were talking about two different applications and possibly definitions of "boredom".

Gator's comment, if I can speak for him, is about mortals who are not all-knowing.  The Celestial Kingdom will be people who are all-knowing or are learning directly from those who are all-knowing.  Completely different scenarios.

Perhaps a longer phrase of his statement would be

 But he thought

 to be a concise way of putting that.

You yourself said that you profit from daily gospel discussion.  Would it be so profitable if we all came here to say the exact same things?  You never said that.  That's just an extreme example.  Absolutely true. Just an example.

I don't think Gator ever meant the extremity you posited either.  

Agreement is not the same as identicality. (Yeah! New word.)  Apparently it's not two different definitions of "boredom" happening, but two different definitions of "agree".

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

"Depends on what you mean" was an expression of my belief that I believed you and Gator were talking about two different applications and possibly definitions of "boredom".

Gator's comment, if I can speak for him, is about mortals who are not all-knowing.  The Celestial Kingdom will be people who are all-knowing or are learning directly from those who are all-knowing.  Completely different scenarios.

Perhaps a longer phrase of his statement would be

 But he thought

 to be a concise way of putting that.

You yourself said that you profit from daily gospel discussion.  Would it be so profitable if we all came here to say the exact same things?  You never said that.  That's just an extreme example.  Absolutely true. Just an example.

I don't think Gator ever meant the extremity you posited either.  

  Feel free to speak for me on this issue, for you are correct, that is how I feel. 

I was very blessed-well, I am very blessed.  My ward up north had lots of people who thought differently and were not afraid to say it. I remember the wonderful classes I used to attend after sacrament meeting where people :: oh the horror :: voiced their opinions. Two people died, three left the church, and another four sat in the corner crying. 

And they call my side snowflakes! 

 

Edited by MormonGator

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I believe that the most righteous men on Earth, that is, the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency, sometimes spend many hours, in meetings spread out over many weeks and months, counselling together on matters on which they cannot, at first, initially agree. I believe that counselling together will continue to be a common form of behaviour in the post-existence, as it was in the pre-existence. It may well be that such counselling would not be necessary if we all thought and acted the same in all things. I believe that we can and will have our own opinion on different matters, and that the difference between opinions does not equate to one opinion being better than, or more righteous than, another opinion.

(And if you do all agree with me, then you are far more likely to make it to the Celestial Kingdom :) )

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Bunch of sharks in the water smelling for blood. How about instead of constantly trying to take digs at each other, we give everyone the benefit of the doubt for what they write? Would it be so hard to consider what others posted more thoughtfully like @Carborendum did just now?

Honestly, if I wanted to, I could be mad dogging you guys a lot more for the things you say. @Carborendum gave a great example of how @The Folk Prophet‘s words could’ve been twisted around on him just as easily. Here’s another example: does anyone actually read what @Grunt writes? This whole thread is about the guy’s intolerance for those less faithful than him. Maybe a little self-righteous, close-minded, anyone, anyone? I understand the guy is the darling of this forum with his conversion story, but at what point do we stop with the preferential treatment? At what point do we stop picking sides, start treating everyone as equals, and just focus on sharing more in the common love we have for the gospel? 

I’ve actually exhibited restraint by only selectively responding to the more ridiculous statements by some users. But why do some users feel the need to pounce on EVERY. SINGLE. LITTLE. THING? I’m just tired of all the digs. It’s making me want to treat everyone else the same. 

Edited by clbent04

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2 hours ago, zil said:

So you're saying the Celestial Kingdom will be boring?  (Sorry, but I had to point out that agreement does not, of necessity, lead to "boring".)

[ I wrote the above before @The Folk Prophet posted his reply, and then decided not to post it.  Now it seems like it needs to be posted (hooray for the editor remembering what you wrote).  Not only will the people in the Celestial Kingdom agree, they will be one.  I'm pretty sure you don't get more agreed than that.  And I'm pretty sure they won't be bored.  And unlike what @JohnsonJones wrote, and yes, some in history have said, I agree with Elder Maxwell - there will come a time when the residents of the Celestial Kingdom will all be omniscient - no longer learning - and their progress will be in the form of execution, not education.  And I'm in agreement with Nibley, they won't find this repetition boring in the least. ]

Perhaps a misunderstanding on your part of what I referred to...

For example, it is with statements like these that I referred to with regard to us continuing to learn and grow

Quote

The whole idea of Mormonism is improvement—mentally, physically, morally, and spiritually. No half-way education suffices for the Latter-day Saint. He holds with Herbert Spencer that the function of education is to “prepare man for complete living,” but he also maintains that “complete living” should be interpreted “life here and hereafter.” Joseph Smith declared that the glory of God is intelligence, that a man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, and that whatever principles of intelligence he attains to in this life, they will rise with him in the resurrection, giving him the advantage over ignorance and evil in the world to come. He taught that man by constantly progressing may eventually develop into a divine being, like unto his Father in Heaven. 

(Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1984, p. 27)

Perhaps we will reach a time when we have all knowledge, but it seems apparent to me at first that we will still need to gain knowledge when we get to the next life.  It is a constant progression until we reach that time when we are like our Father.  IT MAY be that this is a very short time, but to me it infers that we may still be gaining knowledge in the Celestial Realm at least at first.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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5 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

we will still need to gain knowledge when we get to the next life.  It is a constant progression until we reach that time when we are like our Father. 

OK, yes, I agree with this.  It's not that uncommon to hear people talk of God as still learning new things (often supported with a Brigham Young quote) - and that's the notion I reject.  (That's what I thought you meant, but if not, you're right, I misunderstood - thanks for clarifying.)

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:
Quote

The whole idea of Mormonism is improvement—mentally, physically, morally, and spiritually. No half-way education suffices for the Latter-day Saint. He holds with Herbert Spencer that the function of education is to “prepare man for complete living,” but he also maintains that “complete living” should be interpreted “life here and hereafter.” Joseph Smith declared that the glory of God is intelligence, that a man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, and that whatever principles of intelligence he attains to in this life, they will rise with him in the resurrection, giving him the advantage over ignorance and evil in the world to come. He taught that man by constantly progressing may eventually develop into a divine being, like unto his Father in Heaven. 

(Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1984, p. 27)

Perhaps we will reach a time when we have all knowledge, but it seems apparent to me at first that we will still need to gain knowledge when we get to the next life.  It is a constant progression until we reach that time when we are like our Father.  IT MAY be that this is a very short time, but to me it infers that we may still be gaining knowledge in the Celestial Realm at least at first.

AMEN to that. Thank you, thank you. Oh, did I say AMEN.

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12 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Bunch of sharks in the water smelling for blood. How about instead of constantly trying to take digs at each other, we give everyone the benefit of the doubt for what they write? Would it be so hard to consider what others posted more thoughtfully like @Carborendum did just now?

Honestly, if I wanted to, I could be mad dogging you guys a lot more for the things you say. @Carborendum gave a great example of how @The Folk Prophet‘s words could’ve been twisted around on him just as easily. Here’s another example: does anyone actually read what @Grunt writes? This whole thread is about the guy’s intolerance for those less faithful than him. Maybe a little self-righteous, close-minded, anyone, anyone? I understand the guy is the darling of this forum with his conversion story, but at what point do we stop with the preferential treatment? At what point do we stop picking sides, start treating everyone as equals, and just focus on sharing more in the common love we have for the gospel? 

I’ve actually exhibited restraint by only selectively responding to the more ridiculous statements by some users. But why do some users feel the need to pounce on EVERY. SINGLE. LITTLE. THING? I’m just tired of all the digs. It’s making me want to treat everyone else the same. 

I mean, come on. Why am I the only one acknowledging this issue of constant mad dogging, preferential treatment, and choosing sides on this forum?  Why does there have to be sides? If somebody posts something of quality, I respond favorably even if I may disagree with something else they've said in the past. Why are grown adults picking teams? Some of you are worse than middle school, high school teenage girls. Aren't we all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? This really should be a larger discussion if this many people are turning a blind eye to these issues. 

If @Grunt and I had of switched roles on who originally posted this thread and who was responding to it, I would still be getting backlash for having posted such a ridiculous thing. How quick would it take one of these select users to blow me up for me commenting on my disdain for those less faithful than me?  It's just a silly, ridiculous thing to post in the first place, and I've been called out and harassed for far less. I would've gotten no likes for the OP, and Grunt's subsequent reply to my post calling me out on it would have received 5 likes by now. 

Edited by clbent04

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15 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I mean, come on. Why am I the only one acknowledging this issue of constant mad dogging, preferential treatment, and choosing sides on this forum?  Why does there have to be sides? If somebody posts something of quality, I respond favorably even if I may disagree with something else they've said in the past. Why are grown adults picking teams? Some of you are worse than middle school, high school teenage girls. Aren't we all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? This really should be a larger discussion if this many people are turning a blind eye these issues. 

If @Grunt and I had of changed roles on who originally posted this thread and who was responding to it, I would still be getting backlash for having posted such a ridiculous thing. How quick would it take one of these select users to blow me up for me commenting on my disdain for those less faithful than me?  It's just a silly, ridiculous thing to post in the first place, and I've been called out and harassed for far less. I would've gotten no likes for the OP, and Grunt's subsequent reply to my post calling me out on it would have received 5 likes by now. 

I pick no teams, I love (or hate, depending on how you interpret it) all equally.  It boils down to the content of a post.  If I agree with what a post says, think it adds something, it informs me of something I did not know, makes me think, or various other reasons I'll put an icon on it (like, cry, laugh, etc).  I may have disagreed with one in another post completely, but it does not affect what I choose to like, thank, thumbs up or other item in any other post.

I'm sorry if you are feeling put upon, that is not my intent or desire.  I try not to be biased or go dogging anyone. 

Me and many others see things very differently from a political point of view, so I do not think I over favor anyone in any regards, but when somebody says something I think is notable I'll mark it.  It could be interesting but it may not strike me at the time so I might not mark it as well (so, even if I do not mark something does not necessarily mean I disagree or dislike it, I could very much agree or like it, just not enough to mark it with an icon).

On the topic of likes or dislikes, for me I find it can be interesting to see what people respond with, but I do not let it overly sway me.  If they put an icon down that they like, or respond and help me to understand their thoughts better, or even if they differ from my own thoughts, that's good.  Interaction with others on our ideas and thoughts (in a useful and productive way) regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Gospel is why I am here. 

For me, I think the more important item is to see how many likes and other items I should put out.  Expressing appreciation and love to others is probably far more important than what I receive.  On that note I am probably FAR too like a Grinch and should probably give out more thumbs, hearts, and trophies than I do. 

It may be that because I am too miserly with my likes, or too particular that you feel I do not give you enough likes and love.  I apologize if I've given that offense.  Once again, even if I don't give one a thumbs up or something to that effect, I could completely agree or like what was said.  At times, I just do not have anything else to add to it.

Other times I may disagree, but feel it is not worth bringing up.

And finally, if I truly think I should pipe up, I do.  At times I get VERY wordy and talk a LOT about what I think.  Expressing my mind is probably NOT a weak point.  There are times people sometimes wish that I WOULD be a little less wordy in my response. 

However, I assure you that for me, I do not choose a team (unless it is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints team, then I suppose you might call me guilty as charged), but if one did a statistical analysis of what I write and what I choose to put an icon with, there may be trends that I subconsciously follow but am unaware of. 

I am NOT a big fan of High School drama (or at least the idea that we attribute to that sort of attitude), nor the idea of the popular and non-popular crowd of people.  I would hope to dissuade such type of thinking among adults. 

I hope that do not hold a grudge against me on this account and that hopefully we all get along.

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

I pick no teams, I love (or hate, depending on how you interpret it) all equally.  It boils down to the content of a post.  If I agree with what a post says, think it adds something, it informs me of something I did not know, makes me think, or various other reasons I'll put an icon on it (like, cry, laugh, etc).  I may have disagreed with one in another post completely, but it does not affect what I choose to like, thank, thumbs up or other item in any other post.

I'm sorry if you are feeling put upon, that is not my intent or desire.  I try not to be biased or go dogging anyone. 

Me and many others see things very differently from a political point of view, so I do not think I over favor anyone in any regards, but when somebody says something I think is notable I'll mark it.  It could be interesting but it may not strike me at the time so I might not mark it as well (so, even if I do not mark something does not necessarily mean I disagree or dislike it, I could very much agree or like it, just not enough to mark it with an icon).

On the topic of likes or dislikes, for me I find it can be interesting to see what people respond with, but I do not let it overly sway me.  If they put an icon down that they like, or respond and help me to understand their thoughts better, or even if they differ from my own thoughts, that's good.  Interaction with others on our ideas and thoughts (in a useful and productive way) regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Gospel is why I am here. 

For me, I think the more important item is to see how many likes and other items I should put out.  Expressing appreciation and love to others is probably far more important than what I receive.  On that note I am probably FAR too like a Grinch and should probably give out more thumbs, hearts, and trophies than I do. 

It may be that because I am too miserly with my likes, or too particular that you feel I do not give you enough likes and love.  I apologize if I've given that offense.  Once again, even if I don't give one a thumbs up or something to that effect, I could completely agree or like what was said.  At times, I just do not have anything else to add to it.

Other times I may disagree, but feel it is not worth bringing up.

And finally, if I truly think I should pipe up, I do.  At times I get VERY wordy and talk a LOT about what I think.  Expressing my mind is probably NOT a weak point.  There are times people sometimes wish that I WOULD be a little less wordy in my response. 

However, I assure you that for me, I do not choose a team (unless it is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints team, then I suppose you might call me guilty as charged), but if one did a statistical analysis of what I write and what I choose to put an icon with, there may be trends that I subconsciously follow but am unaware of. 

I am NOT a big fan of High School drama (or at least the idea that we attribute to that sort of attitude), nor the idea of the popular and non-popular crowd of people.  I would hope to dissuade such type of thinking among adults. 

I hope that do not hold a grudge against me on this account and that hopefully we all get along.

@JohnsonJones I absolutely agree you post unbiasedly. You’ve called me out on some stuff, but you’ve also bolstered me up through some of your other responses. Thank you for being a good example of that. I really mean that. I would say the following users are also good examples of responding unbiasedly: @Vort , @NeuroTypical , @CV75 , @Carborendum (95 percent of the time), @person0, @Sunday21 , @SilentOne , @Midwest LDS , @LiterateParakeet , @Snigmorder , @Just_A_Guy, @Anddenex , @Mike , @mirkwood , @Fether and probably 2 or so others. I really would like to say a sincere thanks to you guys for making this forum a more positive place by leading by example. There is no bias to your criticism, you critique on content alone, and that helps me want to stay more engaged in the gospel as I really do value your perspective and my involvment on this forum. You don’t respond based on your imagined opinions of someone else’s level of worthiness, you just respond based on the content and quality of the post.

I’d like to make particular note of @Vort since he’s called me out quite a few times, but everything he does it’s from a positive place, and I’ve sensed it’s out of love and genuine care for others. I’ve always really appreciated that as with the rest of you I mentioned. 

Edited by clbent04

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1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

@JohnsonJones I absolutely agree you post unbiasedly. You’ve called me out on some stuff, but you’ve also bolstered me up through some of your other responses. Thank you for being a good example of that. I really mean that. I would say the following users are also good examples of responding unbiasedly: @Vort , @NeuroTypical , @CV75 , @Carborendum (95 percent of the time), @person0, @Sunday21 , @SilentOne , @Midwest LDS , @LiterateParakeet , @Snigmorder , @Just_A_Guy, @Anddenex , @Mike , @mirkwood , @Fether and probably 2 or so others. I really would like to say a sincere thanks to you guys for making this forum a more positive place by leading by example. There is no bias to your criticism, you critique on content alone, and that helps me want to stay more engaged in the gospel as I really do value your perspective and my involvment on this forum. You don’t respond based on your imagined opinions of someone else’s level of worthiness, you just respond based on the content and quality of the post.

I’d like to make particular note of @Vort since he’s called me out quite a few times, but everything he does it’s from a positive place, and I’ve sensed it’s out of love and genuine care for others. I’ve always really appreciated that as with the rest of you I mentioned. 

Not trying to pick on you, just a comment on my personal perception. From my perspective, everyone is biased somehow or other. Especially, when posting on the topic of religion, people are going to be making judgments based on their interpretation of personal experiences that have lead them to certain conclusions. If I am posting anything from the perspective of believing the church is true my bias will come out that I believe the church is true. I would much rather be labeled as respectful of other posters, than unbiased.

That being said, I feel like I'm getting the sense from you that you feel on the outs in the community and that your comments are preferentially attacked and/or ignored. I can't speak to what others may or may not be doing in this regard, but I can tell you I have often felt unwelcome here, too. I'm not sure if it's because I don't communicate well, I've made too many enemies, post too infrequently to be a known commodity, rub people the wrong way, or simply have nothing useful to contribute. Some people are bullies. When it comes to topics people are really emotionally charged about sometimes they show forth excessive passion and don't realize they are being bullies. I've probably done this myself. I'd offer some advice to try and help you feel more wanted, but I'm the wrong messenger, as I am also a misfit in the community - and I "side with the Brethren."

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9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

"Depends on what you mean" was an expression of my belief that I believed you and Gator were talking about two different applications and possibly definitions of "boredom".

There are different definitions of "boredom"?

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Gator's comment, if I can speak for him, is about mortals who are not all-knowing.  The Celestial Kingdom will be people who are all-knowing or are learning directly from those who are all-knowing.  Completely different scenarios.

Sure. But even in mortality our highest desire should be to become like Christ and be one in Him. We should be working for perfection. Diversity might be a useful tool. But it is not the goal.

9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I don't think Gator ever meant the extremity you posited either.  

That may well be true. And I certainly understand your explanation. But the plain fact is that a simple statement, sans explanation, that us all thinking alike would be boring implies that all of us being like Christ would be somehow negative. 

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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