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I think the point Quin is trying to convey is that the LDS cultural response to pornography is disproportionate to the offense. How many people times have we heard people say that they would consider leaving their spouse if they found him or her viewing pornography? The LDS culture tends to conflate viewing pornography with pornography addiction with sexual addiction. What Quin has said is true. There are countless men outside of the LDS culture who view pornography, perhaps even regularly, and they are able to function normally in society and have normal, healthy, marital relationships. That doesn't mean it's "right" or "ok" to view pornography. But LDS culture has talked this up so much that there are many that feel that any level of consumption is an imminent danger to the eternal salvation of the consumer. A healthier dialog would be one that slamjet has already referred to. It's about control, or loss of control. We need to understand why people consume pornography. More often than not, it has very little to do with sex, and more to do with addiction and coping with stress. Placing such high stakes on the game--such as fear of a spouse leaving, or fear of an impossible path to repentance--is often counterproductive to the healing of people that are in need of it. At least that's what I saw in Quin's response. Perhaps it's because I don't subscribe to the LDS dialog surrounding pornography.

Are you kidding me? Porn is only a big deal because we're not used to it? It is a sin. It is a major deal. It is a major problem. Just because the rest of the world doesn't consider it a problem is irrelevant. A sin is a sin and it is NOT relative. Morality is NOT relative. God sets the standards for what we should and should not "freak" at, not the world.

Just to add to the thread: to get access to your account for the LDS Store (Distribution Center), you may need your MRN (membership record number). You can get it through your online access... or you may need to speak to your ward clerk to get it and register. BTW, there's NOTHING like wearing a fresh set of garments to feel "fresh in the gospel" (so to speak).

I usually just ask Palerider what's going on. He can be biased, but he's not as bad as MSNBC or FOX.

I have learned the hard way to just let my stylist take care of my roots. Instead of using the root cover ups made by the hair color companies you can get this: http://www.sallybeauty.com/haircolor-touch-up/CLSTEV33,default,pd.html#q=root&sz=60&start=33 Just style your hair and only cover the roots where they are obvious. It will wash out in the next shampoo. The other thing you can do is to get your hair highlighted. I get regular color touched up every 6 weeks and highlights every 18 weeks. The highlights make the roots less noticeable. Also, a haircut with more volume on top helps make the roots less noticeable. We grey early in our family. I've had to color my hair since I was 25. So, I've had a lot of experience!

Groups, gallery and blogs haven't been brought over yet. It's being worked on but no ETA on that.

Whether it be porn or any other sin my view is that we, as members, ought to be less judgmental and more inclined to show sympathy and compassion towards those who are living in sin. Why? Because, believe it or not, every single one of us are living in sin and do we not all beg for mercy, compassion, and acceptance from Heavenly Father? And if we are not begging, do we not at least hope, wish, and wonder if Heavenly Father has mercy and compassion for us? There is a tendency, not universal of course, but a strong tendency in my experience in life for members of the Church to essentially kick the sinner/addict when they are down because they believe they are more righteous than the filthy, perverted porn addict (alcoholic, etc.). I see people in my Ward who are struggling with addictions and I know that in most cases these individuals already feel like crap. They already think they are worthless. They already feel like they aren't worthy to be with members of the Church. So, they don't come to church. They don't participate. They are more inclined to stay away. In some cases their feelings are not justified but in many cases they are because members can and do judge them. What these people need are not overreactions and people preaching to them how horrible they are or how horrendous their actions are (they already know or feel that). What they need is to feel compassion. To know that they are loved and accepted, despite their sins. This is what I want the people I know in my ward who are struggling with addictions to know. I want them to know that its okay to have weaknesses and still come to church. That is what church is for. It is for the weak and the wicked. Come and be with us. We love you. We want you to be healed. Come get strength from joining with those who are struggling just like you are, albeit with maybe different sins and different trials, but we are still relying on the Atonement of Jesus Christ and are begging for mercy like you. I may have a testimony of the gospel and I know the atonement is real but I don't have everything figured out. -Finrock

Pam's wrath ?? I wouldn't be afraid of her or her wrath. Lol!!

I wasn't going to say this, but I decided to anyway at the risk of Pam's wrath. Don't get mad at me Pam, but, similar to how you freak when it snows, even a little, some people freak at a teensy tiny earth quake. lol

Perhaps I still miss the point of what you're trying to say here. Are you suggesting it is better if we just move on after sinning as if nothing happened? I agree it is a problem when someone agonizes over sin endlessly, because when the atoning power of Christ heals them it is the end of it, but if the agony is not ceasing this can be a good impetus to seek out the atoning healing. Outside of the church people haven't made covenants of obedience and are less accountable, so moving on for them is more of an option, but even then if they choose to be baptized they will need to confront this.

I too am sorry to hear about your dad, anatess. I agree with what you're saying that there is more to health than simply what you eat. However, it really is a pretty huge part. Most people can't do much to change the environment they live in more than to pick a certain neighbourhood, and use certain hygiene products and practices. On the other hand most adults do have the capacity to choose how they feed themselves. Why not take as much advantage of health factors you can control. A nutritionally dense diet has in many cases not only prevented, but actually reversed advanced conditions such as those mentioned above. The role of genetics gets overplayed. We all have genetic weaknesses that leave us more vulnerable to specific conditions, but when our bodies have the nutrients they need in abundance and are not bogged down with excess junk these genetic weaknesses do not get a chance to express. Genes do not predetermine outcomes, they can be switched on and off based on lifestyle choices. Sure genetic mutations and absenteeism can occur such as you might see with say down syndrome, but this is different than simply accepting that diabetes runs in my family so my turn is coming. Cancer is a nasty beast. It is far better to prevent it than to try to reverse it. It is lurking behind the scenes for years before it gets noticed. The average breast tumor has been growing for 10 years before it is the size of a pea. Your uncle does sound like a bit of an anomaly, a sort of George Burns type.

Well, "freak" was her word, of course. What I'm taking exception to is a concept. Specifically: "Non-LDS don't blink at porn & MB... But LDS-culture freaks, I posit, again because of the novelty." The implication being that we, also, shouldn't blink at porn and MB? Or that we somehow shouldn't take them as seriously as we do. As if the the only reason we have to be highly concerned with people looking at porn is because it's a novelty for us. I don't think so. Moreover, the whole idea that shame is unhealthy and that removing shame would somehow fix the problems is misguided. If a person has involved themselves in something shameful they should feel shame. Taking away the shame of it is not going to help people feel "godly sorrow". They're not mutually exclusive one to another. And removing the shame is more likely to enable the negative behavior than to help them feel "godly sorrow". Anyhow, what are you saying godly sorrow is that shame is not? Disappointing one's parents is not a valid motivation, but disappointing God is? The church and it's members have no responsibility to alleviate people's feelings of guilt for sin. The leaders of the church will continue to warn against the dangers of sin, as they should, and we should support and sustain them in this, as well as warning others just as adamantly. Ultimately, my contention, is that her post implied that the member's response to such things is freaking, or, as you put it, responding irrationally, and I highly disagree. These things are so incredibly dangerous to our souls that, if anything, people are not responding intently enough to their severity. What does qualify as a viable thing to freak at? Someone sticking their hand in the fire? A kid running out into traffic? Someone playing with a loaded gun? Are people's souls less valuable to us than their safety and their lives? We freak because we care.

Yes u can put your garments back on again. Its a covenant you made to always wear them. THeres no need to ask your bishop but if it makes u more comfortable then do so, plus he will help you with any concerns you have or if you need help on the road back, its always good to talk with your bishop he is your spiritual father its the Bishops job to help us all to get on the right path and help us. Don't be afraid to speak with them, their more understanding then a lot of us think. And they really are concerned about us all. Welcome back into activity its a wonderful road to follow the Saviors path. And Heavenly Father is soooo happy that you desided to come back and so are all your brothers and sisters in the church. What more can we wish for then the safety and happiness of our fellow man.....??? The best happiness we can achieve is the closesness to the Godhead, and striving to do what is right. And we all learn this differently..... Welcome back Bro..

I believe that the condescension of G-d specifically refers to the sacrifice and atonement of Jesus Christ. It is a reference to Jesus descending beneath all things to suffer all things both physical and spiritual that man suffers or can suffer. This was done that man may be lifted up to the highest exaltation and be one with G-d. One of the problems I have with the doctrine of some Christian sects is that Jesus was fully both man and G-d. My problem is that if Jesus retained the status of being fully G-d then there was no actual condescension but rather a mascaraed of a G-d pretending to be man. My understanding is that there was an actual condescension – not a half and half pretense.

I watched it and I thought it was absolutely beautiful just the way they did it. I've sung in large choirs and have done The Messiah. I loved this concert from the MoTab.

This thread has much need for a laugh button. Lol.

I'd talk to the bishop. I expect if you can't buy them without a temple recommend that you probably shouldn't wear them until you have a temple recommend. Thus if you've been away and no longer have an up to date recommend, well, that takes us back to talking to the bishop. :)

The example you set can be a powerful, powerful thing. But you cannot force someone else to change.

I agree with the two posts above. My brother and sister-in-law spent several years in a sexless marriage. SiL feels comfortable sharing such things with me (Brother is a man of few words, but was all right with my awareness), so I am privy to some details. Now, there's was some other issues rather than "I don't want to have sex with you", but I think some principles can be shared. They worked on the stuff mentioned above (along with seeing a counselor and what not).

In support of anatess's point above: Covered this in priesthood this week. From the Joseph Fielding Smith manual: If a man and his wife were earnestly and faithfully observing all the ordinances and principles of the gospel, there could not arise any cause for divorce. The joy and happiness pertaining to the marriage relationship would grow sweeter, and husband and wife would become more and more attached to each other as the days go by. Not only would the husband love the wife and the wife the husband, but children born to them would live in an atmosphere of love and harmony. The love of each for the others would not be impaired, and moreover the love of all towards our Eternal Father and his Son Jesus Christ would be more firmly rooted in their souls.

My father died when I was six, nearly seven years old. When I think back on it, while growing up, the biggest fear I had was "what if my mom dies too?" I was so scared of becoming an orphan. Where would I live? I didn't understand that I wouldn't be homeless, and that there was family that would take care of me. I was also afraid of my siblings and I being split up. Now, I look back, and think, how ungrounded this fear was. It would have been nice to have had an adult reassure me (us) that we would have a place to live, and that we would not be split up if my mother should happen to die too. Now, some harsh facts about children when a loved one dies. They are not going to remember the deceased one, or at least have very few memories as time goes by. That's why pictures, journals, even short notes are sooo important. I don't remember my father. I would give anything to have a few pages of a journal. One page. One paragraph. Anything hand written by my father would be priceless. A hand written letter to each of his children would be a treasure. In our family circumstance, my father died in an accident, so it was sudden, and there was no way to prepare for this. But, I'm thinking that I want to write letters to each of my own children even though I am currently healthy. I had a 19 year old daughter die in an accident almost 11 years ago. Her youngest brother was nine years old at the time. Several years after her death, my son came to me, in tears, and said "Mom, I'm starting to forget Shelly!" Sadly, it is a fact of life, that as time goes by, memories start to fade. So whatever you can do to help the children to remember their mother would be helpful. There's already been some good advice given. Do video tapes, scrap books, vacations, etc. One of the most comforting truths that I had as a child growing up, was that I knew our family was a "forever" family. I knew that because my parents were sealed together in the temple, that if we lived worthily we could be together again. I look forward to the day when I will see my father and daughter again. What a comfort the Plan of Salvation is. It is the greatest blessing our Father has to offer us.

I wouldn't even approach the issues of the marriage from a sex-filled or sexless point of view. The issues of the marriage seem much deeper than that. A sexual relationship will not fix the marriage. Fixing the marriage will generate the sexual relationship. Where would I start? Fix this first: Then work on this:

Aside from what has already been mentioned (start dating her!!!!, etc), I also suggest leaving notes around for her to find, bring her flowers for no reason, etc. It wouldn't hurt to ask her why she's hesitant (pain, not fulfilled/satisfied, bored, feels unattractive, it's gross, etc). If it's a low libido issue - a health issue could be behind that (look into Traditional Chinese Medicine or find a naturopath since western doctors don't deal with underlying causes). Also, do you give her back massages without expecting anything further, etc? Furthermore, don't ever do anything to break her trust - that can be a deal breaker for quite some time. Brotherson (mentioned above) has a website as well: http://www.strengtheningmarriage.com

Since you are looking I would highly recommend http://marriagebuilders.com/. Now to address what you have written, your wife withholding sex for whatever reason is purely self-defeating. These issues might be addressed with counseling. I would recommend seeing a marriage counselor, perhaps one that specializes in sex therapy. I'm divorced and remarried and I feel sometimes like I jumped from the frying pan into the fire. I have had the kids for the last 7 years but one is moving away to live with her mother. It has been hard. I can tell you from experience that not allowing divorce to be an option is the right way to go. I commend you for that. What you can do for now is start courting her (this should have never stopped) and going on weekly dates. Don't think you have to go alone, invite close friends and family and try to show her a good time if it's become awkward just the two of you. Sometimes seeing someone in a different light (social situation) can bring back those feelings of attraction. Surprise her. Take her to the temple and start working on your health. Become the person you would find attractive (if that makes any sense). If you look at it, your dropping the ball on a lot of things that can stand to be improved. It sucks to have to do it while your (very real) needs go unmet, but these are things you probably know you should be doing. “Arise from the dust, my sons, and be men”..am I right? Stop cowering and start taking control of your life and doing what you know is right. As you work on things try your hardest to not take it personally, exercise forgiveness, gratitude and charity. All of us must learn at some point the only person we can change is ourselves. When we try to change another we fail.

As for sex being a "need" I agree it is not a basic need in the sense of food, shelter, clothing etc. However, I do believe it is a conditional need for a fully functioning marital relationship at some point. It isn't that it is needed on the wedding night, or anniversary, or valentines day, or any other given night because one partner wants it, but if it NEVER happens there is a problem that will assuredly weaken the relationship unless both parties agreed to a sexless relationship from the outset. Which brings up the fact that communication about sexual expectations should be done before marriage. Wedding vows of chastity and fidelity are just that, vows to only share the most intimate emotional and physical experiences with the one you're marrying. Wedding vows are not an oath to celibacy.

Divorce totally off the table/not even part of the discussion... I believe it\\\'s still impossible to classify the cognitive, emotional, physical, & spiritual well being of a marriage based on a single activity within the marriage that is a joint endeavor between the spouses.Replace \\\"sex\\\" with laughing, going to church, cleaning, raising children, talking... Literally \\\"whatever\\\"... And you\\\'re going to find hundreds, if no thousands of different answers. When only one person is making a choice, it\\\'s a simple thing. When 2 people are making a choice together? Then it becomes complex. Let\\\'s take \\\"cleaning\\\" to be the activity. Because cleaning is a fairly mundane & simple thing, right? But... - Some people will be pathological about it (addiction, OCD, ADHD, GAD, Hoarding) - Others prioritize that EXTREMELY high (medical needs...like blindness, immunodeficiency, wheelchair access, and umpteen others) - Others prioritize that very high (necessary to their gainful employment, necessary for their cog/emo health, necessary for...) - Others prioritize that high (not necessary for their needs... But necessary for their wants) - Others prioritize it med (they enjoy either cleaning OR a clean house, but it\\\'s not necessary for their needs or wants) - Others prioritize it low (they don\\\'t care, but could care less) - Others prioritize it very low (they couldn\\\'t care less) - Others prioritize it extremely low (completely oblivious... For a whole variety of reasons). You take 2 people married and they\\\'re going to be in two different places on that spectrum above. And that spectrum is ONLY about the priority of cleaning in their lives! Those 2 different places on the spectrum will cause either friction or ease or both. Those 2 different places on the spectrum can move around (like if one partner becomes blind, or if there\\\'s an earthquake, or death in the fam, or, or, or, or). How those 2 people relate to each other, and their positions on the spectrum can change a great deal. And all of he above is something like 2% of the factors involved! Be it sex or cleaning... One can\\\'t simply say \\\"If you respect your partner you will do XYZ.\\\" You can say what you WONT do very simply. But saying what one SHOULD do is an almost impossible proposition. There are too many variables in play. Coercive Sex = Bad That\\\'s easy. But the reverse logic doesn\\\'t work.

“Brothers and sisters, one of the great consolations of this Easter season is that because Jesus walked such a long, lonely path utterly alone, we do not have to do so. His solitary journey brought great company for our little version of that path, the merciful care of our Father in Heaven, the unfailing companionship." Jeffrey R. Holland

We've covered this topic before, but I'll respond as I always do. I try to be tactful in my wording while making my point. I would also agree with, Classylady, that it's not worth battling back and forth with someone that must have the last word in. I could name some threads now where I've left the discussion hanging because I didn't feel it necessary to squeeze in the last word. While this decision can be frustrating at times, because no resolve has been met, I can't help but assume that "last word in" from the other person was at least satisfying to them. I understand the language barrier thing but not personally, as to the extent that Anatess says she experiences. English is my first language, I speak and read French very well, and I can muddle my way through Tagalog and Spanish. I can't say that I've noticed any major cultural differences when participating in my Frenglish forum. Sure, there are some blunt posters, but overall I haven't experienced cultural clashing. Now... off the internet I head butt my husband's side of the family a lot, they're native Netherlanders and just tend to be outspoken people, and don't flinch with their tactless approach. I've learned that this is a cultural difference. They're not intending to be rude, but in my cultural, their "tone" can certainly come across as such or even arrogant. I have no idea how I would come across if I attempted typing in Dutch in a Dutch forum to Dutch people. Possibly, I'd come across as the rude and arrogant one? Hard to say.

The Infinite Atonement by Tad Callister is really amazing.