Leaderboard

Bini, I find your post interesting, as approximately 20 years ago I had my name removed after having been born a raised in a family that has been LDS since the church was very young. I have been in heavy prayer, study, and consideration for some time now, concerning returning. I left with some sorrow, much guilt (betrayal of family), but was sure I was doing the right thing. I now realize, with sorrow, that my baptisim, blessings, etc, are no more. The realization of this (though of course I always knew it... I had just never addressed it in anyway) is something I found slightly difficult to deal with. Just make sure you are very certain in what you are doing. It may bring painful regret in the future.

Of course our beliefs are within our control. Who else would have the control? We're not helpless creatures. We all have free agency to believe and act as we do. That free agency also includes the ability to change our minds, which can also include changing our beliefs. I converted to the church from Judaism. The whole "Jesus thing" (as I used to call it) made no sense to me. Then a member of the church shared his testimony with me and invited to read the Book of Mormon and go to church. I took the missionary lessons. I was presented with information that I never heard before. My beliefs changed. That was my choice. I could have said thanks, but no thanks (and I initially did. I fought changing my mind). But I made the choice to change my beliefs. At some point, we all choose. To believe X or believe Y. Or not to believe.

Belief is to have faith in someone or to accept something as true.The definition of Faith from the scriptures -Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ~ Hebrews 11:1 The mistake many atheists make is that they assume that religious belief is not based on evidence. But on the contrary it is based on evidence. The evidence is a combination of thoughts, feelings, experiences and every bit as much if not more deduction, reasoning and logic that comprise any scientific theory...but I digress. So what is truth vs belief? From a What is Truth? from Dieter F. Uchtdorf of the First Presidency We will be held accountable for our actions, which are often caused by our beliefs so the two are intertwined. Our hope, faith, belief and actions are constantly changing as we encounter, receive and accept or reject truths. Truth is absolutely relevant to our beliefs. The closer our actions line up to correct beliefs, and our beliefs line up to the truth the closer to perfection and the greater blessings we will receive. All people are given the "Light of Christ" which gives us a basic sense of what is wrong or right. Yet even that can be snuffed out, by repeatedly choosing evil over good or if environmental conditions where so horrendous as to completely damage that persons mental and spiritual ability to make choices. I don't know any belief system outside the LDS faith that has such great provisions for those living or dead whose environmental circumstances did not allow them in this life to hear the truth of the Gospel or give them an opportunity to believe. Our Heavenly Father will take all things, all factors into account when we are held accountable for our beliefs.

Given the premise, that one isn't in control of one's beliefs, the reasoning is pretty straight forward. Being held accountable for your beliefs, if you don't control them, is akin to being held accountable for other things you don't control such as eye color or nationality. If your response to the prior is, "But we do have control over our beliefs!" you're getting hung up on the premise, if you try an filter his reasoning through a premise he's not using then the end result will continue to be confusing because it's like trying to make an apple pie using beets for filling.

I explained that with the Vs (or thought I did) We have a disconnect between what God said and Means... and what we think/presume/add to what he says and means. Its the second bit that causes the shaking. In the case of the Church being true... People presume/add to it the idea that because it true then the flawed mortals running it will run it perfectly to their expectations. When that fails they get shaken.

True... But being challenged or having doubts is a far cry from what most people think of when we use the term shaken faith. Most people (or maybe its just me?!?) when they hear or talk about shaken faith think the "Oh no! Everything I know/believe is wrong/false" For example if I gain a witness from God that the Book of Mormon is true. That should remain true even if at a later date I find out that the Church lied/deceived/mislead me causing me to doubt the Church.

Obviously, this idea is not true.

Um...no. Just...no.

Respectfully, I disagree. The two concepts are totally incongruous. If you have the strongest of faith then you cannot feel you've been misled. They simply do not align, imo.

They are usually speaking so others give the prayers.

Why are you worried about something from kindergarten time?

I don't believe Joseph was scared of him. They were friends since childhood. He also protected Brigham for awhile as well.

Good day. I guess you could say I'm non-denominational. I believe in Jesus, God, et cetera, but also believe in the positive messages contained in many other religions (eg. Buddhism). Actually I believe or suspect they were all basically the same message delivered with some differences due to the times and cultures in which they arose. I wouldn't say I know what's what. I'm just trying to figure it all out. As for the Book Of Mormon, I am reading it now. Oh, I'm from Australia. I recently visited SLC and was very impressed. It's a beautiful city, with beautiful scenery surrounding it, and Temple Square is amazing. I'll attach a picture of the temple that I took while there.

I'm bored. Can I join the Danites and be an Avenging Angel? Where can I get an application form? Where is their recruiting office? Orrin Porter Rockwell is my hero! (Unfortunately, the movie, "THE AVENGING ANGEL", is not available on DVD.)

HBO produced a film several year ago called Conspiracy, dipicting the secret meeting held by fifteen of the highest-ranking officers of the Nazi party. It was here where Reinhard Heydrich revealed his plan in how to carry out the “final solution,” in which every Jew in Europe was to be killed. The movie closed with a scene that depicted a conversation that supposedly took place between Hydrich and Adolf Eichmann. Although there is some debate as to whether or not the conversation actually took place, the principle of the story told by Hydrich is indicative of where our society is in 2014. I have also included a youtube clip of the conversation from the Movie. Heydrich: He told me a story about a man he had known all his life, a boyhood friend. This man hated his father, yet loved his mother fiercely. His mother was devoted to him, but his father used to beat him, demeaned him, disenherited him. Anyway, this friend grew to manhood and was still in his thirties when the mother died. The mother, who had nurtured and protected him, died. The man stood at her grave as they lowered the coffin, and tried to cry, but no tears came. The man's father lived to a very extended old age, and withered away and died when the son was in his fifties. At the father's funeral, much to the son's surprise, he could not control his tears. Wailing, sobbing... he was apparently inconsolable. Lost. That was the story Kritzinger told me. Eichmann: I don't think I understand. Heydrich: No? The man had been driven his whole life by hatred of his father. When his mother died, that was a loss, but when his father died and hate had lost its object, the man's life was empty..over. Heydrich: That was Kritzinger's warning. Eichmann: What, that we should not hate the Israelites? Heydrich: No, but that it should not fill our lives so much that, when they are gone, we have nothing left to live for. So says the story. I will not miss them. http://youtu.be/_ZMuOhuB3Wo In a nutshell, Kritzinger warning is directed to those who find meaning in life by projecting their hatred onto others, usually those they believe victimized them. The Nazi’s are a perfect example of following this pattern in that they chose the Jews to be the object of their hatred. The Jews were an easy target and were blamed for Germany’s losing the First World War. Those who fit this pattern of behavior often convince themselves that they are noble and virtuous because they believe they are fighting a system of oppression. The clearest example of this is the terror organizations like Hamas and ISIS, who think they are victims of Zionist Jews and the great Satan, also known as the U.S. Although Kritzinger warning is intended for those like the young men illustrated in his story that found meaning in his life through the hatred of his father, his warning is also for members of society. All of the atrocities of the 20th century were the direct result of what Kritzinger warned about. The communists, Fascists, and Socialists all rose to power by identifying an “object” by which they channeled the people’s hatred onto. What worries me in light of the recent events in Ferguson Mo, is that many of the same patterns spoken of by Kritzinger are evident in the rioters and the messages from the so called civil rights leaders. For decades, minorities have been told that they are the victims of a racist white establishment. This narrative as been used to explain why there are such large levels of black unemployment, the large number of blacks incarcerated, and the high number of blacks living in poverty. The scary thing is that this message of victimhood shows no sign of stopping. Just a few days ago Time Magazine published an article defending the rioters in Ferguson. It wouldn't be so depressing if this were written by a blogger living in his mother’s basement, but Time? Although Derek Zoolander was right when he told Matilda "Yeah, well, fortunately for you, not too many people I know read your little TIME magazine, or whatever it's called.” But just about everyone in our society is exposed to news outlets and our educational system, which have all signed onto this narrative. Rather than seeing the world through the lens of what is right and wrong. The left, which run the media and our educational system, fan the flame of hatred because they see the world through the lens of race and victimization. Ben Shapiro of truth revolt best explains the current mindset of those who support the Ferguson protester. Although Shapiro does not mention Kritzinger, it’s pretty clear that the patterns of behavior exemplified by the rioters, and the so-called civil rights activist are alive and well. “Because facts do not matter to those attempting to rectify what they perceive as an unjust universe…individuals do not exist. Individuals are merely stand-ins for groups. Wilson was a white cop; therefore, he was the Racist White Establishment. Brown was a black teenager; therefore, he was the Innocent Black Victim. The parts have already been written; Wilson was merely unlucky enough to land the starring role. Days of Rage provide the outlet for delusional anger. Radical Muslims need an external enemy to justify their own brutality; protesters in Ferguson need an external enemy to justify their own failure to make good in the freest country in the history of humanity. In light of the Riots in Ferguson Mo and the growing presence of terror organizations in the world, the warning given by Kritzinger ought to open all of our eyes to see the writing on the wall. If things don’t change, I am afraid we are heading down a very dangerous road.

There is great wisdom in trusting in The Lord *first and foremost* and withholding judgement and resisting the temptation to feel we're duty-bound to reach the same conclusion that somebody else reached. We may greatly respect them, love them, trust them, find their reasoning highly compelling, logical, believable, etc. But despite all of that, we need to receive our own witness. And we need to hold to the witnesses that we've already received. As TFP points out, what about archeological evidence or lack of "sufficient" evidence, what about "proof" ..? How often do we hear somebody saying they've proven a point and so the only intelligent, logical, reasonable thing for us to do is to accept their argument.. and their conclusion.. As though a cunning and/or a well-crafted argument is enough to establish truth. Truth is independent of arguments and logic. Truth is not established by our limited understanding of it. If we truly believe that our Father is the embodiment and source of all truth then it is essential that we learn to completely trust Him and believe that he has the ability to help us reach the *right* conclusions .. despite our weakness, limited understanding, and impatience. It's ok to admit, as Nephi, that you don't "know the meaning of all things." All things will be revealed in time. Hold fast to the good and take Pres. Uchtdorf's advice to first "doubt your doubts."

I've been kind of amazed at how much sex and language are becoming common place in video games. A lot of it seems to come from the idea that gamers are getting older and they want to make games more 'mature'. Here's an idea, how about you make them with themes that would interest older players instead of trying to reach for the lowest common denominator of violence, the F word, and sex? I've been bugged.

What isn't clear for me is the idea we shouldn't be accountable for our beliefs

Ya straight up sex and nudity is something i'd say is inappropriate. unfortunately such scenes are becoming more common across the board, in all genres.

Hello 2ndRateMind: I am not sure I am fully comprehending your initial premise. I will seek to explain my thoughts according to the premise as I understand it explained and the questions provided. It would not be just for the children of God to be condemned or exalted according to means beyond our control. Our Father in heaven has given us "moral agency" (one might say volition) and adequate knowledge regarding "good vs. evil" in order to make accurate decisions. We experience this independence of individual's beliefs and their volition anytime a Christian sins knowingly. Their actions contradict their belief; however, their actions were their choice. In scripture, I would specify this has been answered (2 Nephi 27:25), "Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men--" EDIT: I have no reason to become Muslim for 5 minutes, thus the experiment appears moot to me, and in 5 five minutes there is no way for me to fully experience a muslim mind set; however, I would claim converts refute this concept, in addition to the principle of Repentance - a change of mind (belief).

It means she recognized that her son's and husband's were in God's control and hand. It would mean that she trusted God for providing the best, even if that means losing them temporarily here on earth. She would know that God was going to take care of her, too. There is a family who lost their kids in a fiery car accident in Chicago. (the Willis family). I have heard her speak at retreats. She would see something really cool, like a piece of playground equipment, and think that she wished the kids were there to see it. Then she would realize that what they were seeing in heaven was far better than what she wished they could see on earth. Often times, when people are sick we pray for complete healing, forgetting that we will never be more healed than we are after we get to heaven.

I also remember of a story, I think it was Hugh B. Brown, that took place during WW I. He met a French woman who had lost her husband and three of her sons to the war. She was asked how she was coping with the situation in her life. She replied she left it at the alter. What does this mean? Leaving it at the alter aka casting your burdens upon Christ?

We had an excellent sermon on that just last night. We experience fear when we don't want to face loss. We fear loss because we are trying to selfishly hold on to things, people, status, etc... We need to surrender all we have to God. All our dreams, relationships, things, etc... need to be entrusted to Him. We need to realize that God loves us and provides the best for us. If He adds or removes something from our life it is for our best interest. The Bible says that perfect love casts out fear. (1 John 4:18). When we truly love God we won't fear loss- we may not enjoy it, but we won't fear it. So, what does this look like in real life? We had to move out of state because of my husband's job. We only had two weeks notice. Two weeks to pack. Two weeks to get a house ready to be sold. Two weeks to say goodbye to dear friends and family. It was overwhelming. It was traumatic. It took a lot longer to sell our house than we thought it would. My attitude sucked. So, I wallowed in self pity for a while. Praise God, He started opening my eyes to His plan and His goodness. I had always thought of ourselves as poor- well at least not solidly upper middle class. I was miserable because we had to make a rent payment and a mortgage payment, plus two sets of utility bills. Then I realized how blessed we were because we were and we could pay for two places to live. Many people live on the street. One look at all the pan-handlers in downtown Richmond makes that obvious. I missed my friends. I missed my church. We found ourselves in a great church here where the worship is so vibrant and the love of God is so evident, just like our church in Illinois. On top of that, our new pastor has opened my eyes to sin in my life that I wasn't aware of (or that I had been ignoring). Dealing with these issues has helped me grow closer to God. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I felt like I was losing many things. I was scared of what the future held. I had to give up my life in Illinois. But in giving (or God taking) those things from me I see He has provided something much better than what I had before. I should have faced these losses joyously, knowing God was working something better. Next time that sort of trial comes I will look back and remember what God for me this time and respond in a more faithful way. BTW- in addition to a church and friends, God provided a buyer for our house and we close on a wonderful house here before Christmas. It even has a waterfall and goldfish pond.

This is how I see it. Giving it all over to Christ means you are allowing yourself to be in a place of humility and are calling upon the Lord for His strength to guide you (even if you find yourself in a web of confusion and turmoil) it's the moment where you rely on faith in belief that all things will be made right by Him. This doesn't mean that those things are made right in a time frame that is always convenient for us. Everything is and will be made right but according to the Lord's Will. Giving it all over to Christ is a step in so many positive directions, including, being able to forgive ourselves and others.

Hmmm. It seems I have caused offence. That was not my intention, and I apologise. When I said this, I was not saying that these are my own considered opinions. And even if they were, I hope I would never be so impolite as to express them in such a way. I meant that these are the kind of things a non-believer might say. And I am sure that those of you who have been on missions have confronted such opinions, and far worse. Nevertheless, even the idea that we believe what we want to believe has it's problems, too. Would we really want to say that our beliefs are independent of any truth value they might possess, and solely down to what we want to be true? So, we have a dilemma. If our beliefs are independent of our volition, we are not accountable for them. And if they are solely dependent on our volition, truth has no relevance to our beliefs. Somewhere between these extremes, must lie the reality. Best wishes, 2RM.

I doubt very much Joseph Smith feared Porter Rockwell. They were friends and distant cousins. Rockwell was 8 years younger than JS and was very loyal to the LDS church and JS. He was even friends with Joseph Smith's sons. M.

Having a gift does not mean that development of the gift is done. It has only began. Sometimes developing our gifts comes - not with ease but great difficulty. If someone has a gift of music they must spend hours in practice before their gift can be recognized as a true gift. Same with sports - some may have physical gifts but such gifts must be practiced and disciplined to become useful. If you have a gift for writing - you should study, practice, develop and discipline your gift as best you can with the best teacher you can get. If you do not work at developing your gift - it will become lost to you. There is a very old saying, "If at first you do not succeed -Try Try again". It appears to me that it is not your gift that has caused you doubts - but your fear of failure. But it is by failing that the best of talents become the greatest of talents. So stop doubting and fearing failure and embrace your failures until they become your successes.

You should find acceptance of your broader faith within our faith. Our last church President encouraged people of all faiths to "bring what you have and we will add to it." It was encourage you to continue in practice of your faith and worship as you learn of ours. I believe his statement was also to encourage members to be more tolerant of other faiths. In the past, it was perceived people were asked to put away the crucifix, or prayer shawl. I believe all forms of worship have value and need to be respected. What you will find different is the LDS faith believes the practice of specific ordinances must be performed by authorized priesthood holders. This requires a devotion to the LDS faith above other "churches", but does not negate your practice of personal forms of worship - such as having a crucifix, Buddhist blessing flags, etc.

So you're saying Heaven and God should cater to everyone's whims? Because people might not want to search/ponder/pray and rethink their world view and adjust their beliefs based on conclusion and inspiration? If you can't believe something, that's that. Don't whine the world is mean because others believe differently.

Converting people to Christianity and letting them help their neighbors.

Isn't that kinda like claiming, "Weight loss is beyond our control. If you doubt this try this experiment, become 25 lbs lighter for the next five minutes and then revert back to 25 lbs heavier. If you succeed I stand refuted." Your quip makes a nice rhetorical flair but it's not really a considered experiment.

I think you mean a "cereal killer"?

The rational against informing your spouse because, "It'll hurt them to know." has always seemed a bit convenient to me. Particularly when paired with, 'It'll be difficult to get their trust back.'

Talk to your bishop immediately, and let him guide you. I think you will eventually have to tell your wife. I think you owe that to her. But let your bishop guide you so that this does not devastate her. That's my opinion, anyway.

Iggy would probably be catching less flack if she didn't come in and counsel someone else to drink coffee. Read her initial posts it's not, "Coffee and tea are against the Word of Wisdom but based on discussion with my Bishop we feel it is justified due to my personal circumstances, so I partake and am still temple worthy. Dahlia go talk to your bishop and see if it's justified in your situation." It's, "Dahlia, drink your coffee. Just don't drink it scalding hot. "

Hello, and welcome to the madhouse.

Welcome to the site and pray the Lord will continue to bless you and your husband.

Another something to think about is temple work. The priests and nuns you wrote of are probably good people who, if they knew what God wanted them to do, would do it. These are the kind who will accept the Gospel in the Spirit World and, when Christ comes, will be sealed to a spouse. I think it's pretty much doctrine that there is a Heavenly Mother, so it would seem we work in partnerships in the Celestial Kingdom, so, it is requisite that we find a partner to obtain exhalation. In this scenario, the priests and nuns won't receive anything less, so long as their devotion is to God and His plan. This is my thinking when I think of family members or friends who won't join the church. I can't possibly know if they've received a revelation that the LDS church holds the true gospel, so, in my mind, 'it's not over 'til it's over.' Those who are righteous, with pure hearts, who honestly seek to believe in and follow Christ will be exalted.

Alma answers this for you: Alma 42:13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God. He can't do 'anything' and remain 'God'. He has rules and laws just like we do.