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Up at the altar there are souls...some are repenting, others are quietly joyful. There are tears, holy silence, and a lady in the corner is even laughing. A deacon is concerned by the seeming irreverence of this woman and goes over to whisper in the pastor's ear. He responds quietly, yet with force, "Leave that woman alone. I know her backstory. She has never laughed in her life and tonight she's experienced the joy of the Lord." Meanwhile, in the back are a group of teens snickering about how fake the church is, and how there's nothing happening up front except a bunch of showboating: Sophomoric cynicism that feigns to be insightful and honest commentary.

Having correctly-set expectations solves the issue for me. These are from kids in journalism school. I'm glad all of my usenet and BBS postings back in those days have mostly died an unarchived digital death - I'm sure I'd be horrified to discover how much I was on a bar with these kids, back when I was one. Author's bio: College is a perfect time to take all your youthful idealism, show it to the world, and crash into the concrete pylons of reality and more mature opinion. College is the air bag. These kids'll survive.

At this point, I just skim the article, sigh, and go on to what's next. Complaining about articles like this is like complaining about zits, Democrats, or the tide. The author is unable to perceive the irony in the very writing of her article. I would call it hypocrisy, but the word "hypocrite" comes from a Greek term that literally means a play actor putting on a false face for everyone else to see, and I am not convinced that the author is sufficiently mature or self-aware to understand how much she exemplifies the traits she claims to disdain.

I dislike articles like this because they come off as whiny. They always focus on the idea of "if only everyone changed to fit my own view of things then the church would be great". It's just silly. The Church of Jesus Christ in every dispensation has been filled with mortals. That means that since Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, toes have been stepped on, people have been cold when they should have been kind, people have been nosy when they shouldn't have been, and rock steady members have apostatized and made others question their testimony. While I think honest attempts to improve ourselves are important, by complaining about everyone church wide instead of working on yourself, you guarantee nothing will happen. You can't change "church culture". You can change yourself, and while there are always exceptions and always will be until Christ comes again, most members are genuinely decent people who are trying to do better, so maybe try cutting each other some slack instead of complaining that everyone isn't perfect. Just my two cents.

The presumption here is that God’s injunction to Adam and Eve was “don’t eat ever”, as opposed to “don’t eat now, and I’ll tell you when it’s time to eat it”. I’ll grant that if all we have to go on is the scripture, “don’t eat ever” is logical reading. But Latter-day Saints who have received their endowment have cause to consider the alternative interpretation.

I can’t begin to process the sort of calculus in which God must engage to make everybody’s personal decisions interact together for the good of all; let alone how He can insert His own guidance to various individuals into that mix while accounting for the fact that some folks will take His advice while others won’t. In my more bewildered moments I have hypothesized that perhaps God actually exercises very little direct control over most elements of our lives; and that earth is more or less like a boarding school to which a parent sends her child—not knowing EXACTLY what will happen, but having a general idea of what the experience entails and knowing that at the end of the process, the result will be an “educated” child (and the more a child at school corresponds with his parents and heeds his parents’ wise advice, the easier the child will find it to navigate the boarding school experience). I do think that perhaps the idea of all things being “made right” in eternity is perhaps a bit of a misnomer, or at least frames things in the wrong perspective. Maybe the point isn’t that I’ll finally “get what’s coming to me” or finally be avenged/vindicated of the wrongs I have suffered. Maybe the point is that I’ll be so happy just to be back in God’s presence, that I won’t really care about much of the stuff that happened here.

That isn't what I said. You can't change other people by complaining about them. The only person you can change is yourself. Now an article where the author talks about ways they've changed some of their own behaviors and the positive effects it's had for them at church? That would be a good read, and a whole lot more effective than the article here. Not only that, just as I mentioned any church, ours included, will always be full of individual people who fall short of who they should be, sometimes in really big ways. Always. The question is, do you learn to love them anyways, and work to treat them as Christ would, or do you grind your teeth and whine about "church culture" and overlook your own sins and imperfections? You can only change yourself.

I have recently been pondering over, what I perceive to be, two incompatible doctrines (teachings) that we sometimes harbor about life and the plan of salvation. First of all we espouse the true doctrine that through the atonement of Jesus Christ everything can be made right (from an eternal perspective) so long as we remain faithful. Every loss, hardship, unfairness, and pain we experience in life can and will work to our good in the end. Every single one! And yet at the same time we sometimes think (speaking from personal experience) that God has a definite detailed plan that maps out every step of our individual lives (at least the big ones) that we need to follow in order to be successful in this life as though agency only exists in terms of accepting or rejecting this detailed day to day plan and that our own personal preferences take a back seat to what God has essentially already foreordained for us. But this kind of thinking, in my mind, completely voids the reality of the first doctrine. Now I probably didn't do a very good job of explaining that so let me add some clarifying comments. Does God have a plan for us his children as a whole and as individuals? Yes. Does he lead and direct us in life if we are willing to listen? Yes. But is it all as detailed and specific as we sometimes want to make it out to be? I don't know and I lean towards probably not. For example, let's say a 40 year old husband and father of five children decides to go sky-diving and his parachute doesn't open and he dies. Let's also say that there was no spiritual impression telling him not to go skydiving and that this man was worthy of such an impression if there were to be one. So, is his death an expression of divine will or is it possible that it was just accident, a result of his choice to go skydiving and that had he not made that choice he could have possibly lived for another 40 years? The common view by I think most would be to say "It must have been his time" as though this man's choice was irrelevant and inadvertently implying at the same time that the atonement could not have made up for his untimely death unless the Lord intended for it to be so. Now maybe it was his time to go. But is it possible that the Lord simply allowed him to make his own choice and live (no pun intended) with the consequences knowing that the atonement would see his family through life in his absence? I think yes that is possible. My point in all this is that while God can and does direct us we need to take much greater accountability for our choices because God's plan for us leaves a lot of room for us to make decisions (sometimes huge one) without his intervention that could greatly impact our lives and the lives of others. Am I right in this way of thinking or do you believe that God will direct us in all the major decisions of life or at least protect us in them?

@theplains, the only stupid questions in this world are ones that the asker has no interest in the answers. When a person habitually asks a question and then disappears, that's showing a lack of real interest, real questioning, or any sincerity. And it's just a waste of time.

Yes and it requires you as an individual personally looking in the mirror not liking what you see and vowing to be better. (which is really a summary of how the gospel works) It is not changed by shrilly demanding everyone else change to fit whatever notion you think is right and true.

What I really dislike about articles (and writers) such as these is the bubble they live under. They have zero awareness that the Church extends beyond the streets of Utah. Saying this is "Mormon Culture" is as ignorant as Bernie Sanders saying Native Americans represent environmentalism...

@GaleG, are you actually interested in the answers to these questions?

https://thirdhour.org/blog/life/mormon-culture/culture-punch-in-face/ I have my own list if anyone cares to read: 1) Joking about trying to avoid the bishop or trying to get out of a talk or calling. 2) Saying that it is acceptable that you are consistently 15 minutes late to 9 am church when you have kids (same family continues to be 15 minutes late to 11:30 am church when the time changes... speaking from personal experience) 3) Focusing on exceptions and unique cases instead of principles of the gospel / leaving long disclaimers at the end of testimonies to prevent offending anyone. (ie "God wants all worthy able men to serve missions, but if you *insert 5 minute explanation as to why missions aren't for everyone*") 4) to-do lists are evil and Pharisaical. The higher law is to just be good and you will naturally do everything you need to. 5) Accusing anyone of hypocrisy or being judgmental. (These are just ways of redirecting personal failing that have been brought to light. And I am not sure we really understand what hypocrisy REALLY means) 6) Home Teaching was this terrible program that needed to change (it wasn't, it was a fantastic program that members failed at). 7) Desiring and enjoying leadership callings is bad. Aspiring to leadership is bad. (We should all be aspiring to Godhood and seeking opportunities to serve a grow along the way) eight*) Dinner foods cant be eaten for breakfast (yes they can) 9) Complaining about church culture is cool. (It's not) *Every time I typed "8 )" it turned into 😎

My father was one of the world's brightest individuals. I do not know of anything he put himself to that he did not succeed at. He loved art but soon learned great art in "Mormon" culture would not support his family. So he became an art teacher - but great art teachers do no make than much more than poor art teachers. He became a business man and an investor (including art investor) and an artist. He became very successful but decided it is better to raise children from poverty than wealth. Why this little back story? Because of his success there were lots of others that came to my father about investment advice. They wanted to know where to put their money. His first question was - How much money do you have to invest? and how much of that can you loose? Without going into too much detail - his advice was to take responsibility upon yourself, start with what you have and learn to invest. Think of your losses as investments in learning and education rather than failures. Then he would add a thought that few seemed to understand. He would say, "Always invest in people - never invest in things or ideas". It was not until my father passed away that I understood I was one of his "investments". This thread is about investing in people or should I say how to succeed through others. Most people think of success in terms of what they can accomplish - that is the shortest road possible to failure. Some people think of success in terms of what they can get others to do - especially if they can get others to do things for them. That is another short road to failure. The only road to success is what you and someone else can do together. I believe this is why President McKay said, "There is not success that will compensate for failure in the home." If your bishop fails - you have failed. If your minister fails - you have failed. If your spouse fails - you have failed. If your kids fail - you have failed. If anyone you know has failed - you have failed. Weather or not we realize it - we invest in others. Our every relationship is an investment. Once I came home with a failing grade in a class. I knew I would have to face my father and explain my failure. I prepared well and told him how the teacher had failed. The subject was difficult and the teacher just was not up to the task. At the beginning of this post I mentioned that my father was once a teacher. He sat me down and told me that regardless of how poorly he taught as a teacher that was always that student the passed his class. He also told me that regardless of how well he taught the class there was always a student that would fail. He told me that what was the most interesting to him what that regardless of what he did - it was always the same students that would pass his class and always the same students that would fail. What he needed to do was get the most he could out of all the students and that meant that it was up to him to convince them that they failed or succeeded on their own terms. That they choose to learn and succeed or they refused and rejected on their own terms. The he asked me - what king of a student I was - one that regardless of how good or bad a teacher was - would I be one that learned - or rejected what the teacher offered? I do not go to church to learn how to be inspired and be closer to G-d - I can do that without going to church -- I know this because I have been in some very horrible places and have felt G-d beside me just as much or more so than at church. I also know that some of the greatest people are not always at church - sometimes the greatest people I have known have been with me in those horrible places. The reason I go to church - is because I can. When I have enough control to be where I want to be - Then I will be there. When I can choose - I choose church. The Traveler

1. Do you take *every* picture in a religious text as establishing doctrine? What about all those pictures of the nativity that show Jesus in a wooden manger, even though we know Palestinian Jews of the first century AD would have been using stone mangers? In answer to your question, Heavenly Father is the embodiment of a union between a spirit (or “spirit body”) and an immortal physical body of perfected flesh. 2. That’s very nice. But the invented dogmas of hellenized third-century Christians who lionized Socrates as much as Jesus and who were confounded by Jews who pointed out that worship of a God who was also the Son of God couldn’t possibly be “monotheistic”, are wholly irrelevant to the current discussion. You’re alleging that Latter-day Saint theology is internally inconsistent; it’s a non sequitur for you to trot out trinitarian fables to further that effort. The question I asked you challenged you to explore the situation from an LDS perspective, which of course you didn’t do; because as I said earlier, you’re here as an accusing ha satan; not as someone sincerely seeking truth or even as a teacher lovingly trying to understand another’s error before correcting it. 3. Jesus said He had done nothing but what He had seen the Father do (John 5:19). Many Saints have taken this literally in the context of Joseph Smith’s proposals in the King Follett discourse. I think often they perhaps push the analogy beyond its usefulness. That said, the process Jesus apparently went through was: a.) Organized as a spirit (from pre-existing intelligence) by God the Father; b.) Progressed further than any other spirit, accepted the role of Savior, and attained status as a “god”, but still lacking a physical body; c.) Condescended to give up His divine power and live a sinless life as a mortal, in political weakness and social obscurity and poverty, ultimately suffering a painful and humiliating death; d.) Was resurrected, being permanently joined to a perfected physical body and returned to the physical presence of the Father. The fact that the Book of Mormon generally focuses on c.) and d.) does not obviate or contradict a.) and b.). As for God the Father - we surmise He always existed at least as an intelligence, at some point was organized into a spirit, at some point received a body, lived, died, was resurrected, and became an embodied God; just as (in rough terms) Jesus did. The degree to which the particulars of God the Father’s journey through mortality may or may not have paralleled Jesus’s own experiences as outlined above, is speculation upon inference. I think some Church members like to believe that God the Father also went through the full series of steps a) through d) because it lets us immediately dismiss uncomfortable questions like whether God the Father has a savior or whether God the Father ever sinned during His mortality; rather than acknowledging that we just don’t know.

From what church teachings I have seen, God's plan for Adam and Eve was for them to disobey Him in the garden; otherwise the Plan of Salvation would have been frustrated. Apparently God chose disobedience as the means to start their progression. Or maybe, despite Him telling them not to eat from the forbidden tree in the garden, He really wanted them to eat from it and the Fall is not viewed as a transgression from heaven's point of view. One thing that is not clear is whether all the heavenly hosts were rejoicing the moment Adam and Eve partook. Jim

2020. A time for new beginnings. A time to be a better person. A time to renew your commitment to doing what's right. A time to kindly show Jim theplains the door.

In trade for a fountain pen and accessories, @NeuroTypical sent me some My Little Pony music (surprisingly good stuff) and this: (Which is currently hanging out off to my right.)

[Stage whisper] Actually, he was born out of wedlock; but we don’t like to talk about it. (Sorry, couldn’t resist the bad dad joke.) On a more solemn note: rejecting any aspiration to righteousness, is not an improvement over hypocrisy. It just means we aren’t even bothering any more with trying to teach the rising generation to improve themselves. It’s a (literally) damnable condition for any society to find themselves in.

But that's not what he said.

Nope.

There are many things that I'm still struggling to understand with the new changes after Pres Nelson's succession. But one thing I'm not struggling with is my faith that Pres Nelson is the prophet of God of this time. I'm about to send my son off to spend 2 years of his life to a place I'm not entirely comfortable with. I trust that God is guiding our prophets to whose hands I hand over the life of my first-born.

From the security guidelines it states: "If the intruder (armed intruder) demands cash, including donations, give him what he asks for without hesitation. After the intruder leaves, call the police immediately." Much of what I've read or been trained on seems very universally generic, meaning very similar to the policies of a gas station, bank or even a fast food establishment. Perhaps these are generically used because statistically they really are the 'safest' practice for those involved? Perhaps they are the least legally damaging to the organization after the fact should things go 'extra' wrong? Perhaps...? Perhaps...? Perhaps all of the above? Who knows... I don't write the policies. Either way, I still believe revelation is a tool used in the process of implementing all Church related policies.

Why wouldn't it be? The leaders of the church are the ones that train us how to receive revelation for our stewardship. The process is exactly the same for theirs. To imply that it is not would be to imply a certain hypocrisy and failure of the church leadership. Instead the church is giving the general instruction to masses. There are a whole lot more members of the church that are totally unqualified to carry. (I'm one of them). As a general instruction to the masses it makes perfect sense. The only real problem is when people declare that a personal revelation given for a limited circumstance can not in anyway even appear to contradict a more general revelation given by the leaders. This scriptures show this is not true. It is just an area we need to be very careful about navigating. We want to be sure we are clearly following the Lord and we want to be careful about sharing it so that we do not encourage others into rebellion when they do not have there own revelation

There was no sign mentioned as being given. There was the sign of his birth... A night without darkness... There was the sign of his death... A day without light... Note the symbolism of both. For is resurrection their was no sign promised... just the promise was that he would visit after it happened. Which he did. As for the timing of his visit... any time after works for that. But note that Mormon 400 years after the events had some questions himself about the time frame as it was recorded. We do not know why he was questioning it... only that he did and that he went with what was recorded.

@Grunt Just released recently...just for you (well, maybe not just for you, but the timing is good). Just a very short summary of things discussed and covered in the ordinance. Hopefully you find it useful.

Or, by example: Possibility #1: God: "Lehi, take your family and flee into the wilderness for the wicked seek to take your life." Lehi: "On my way!" ...and then Lehi decides what to take and what to leave behind. Possibility #2: God: "Lehi, take your family and flee into the wilderness for the wicked seek to take your life. Oh, and leave your riches behind." Lehi: "Got it!" ...and then Lehi decides everything else about what to take and what to leave behind, but leaves the riches explicitly because he was told. In both cases, what he does is "because of the commandments of the Lord", but only in one of these possibilities does the Lord explicitly tell Lehi to leave the riches behind. And we don't know which of these possibilities happened, except that in the original account in the previous chapter all that's mentioned is the command to leave. And either way, there's nothing explicitly forbidding use of the riches that were left behind.

So was I.

I used the children’s books too! Very useful to me. I gave them to investigators and they liked them too!

@Bluebonnet Hi there! Good for you! I am an lds member, former atheist. I did as you are doing, I started by obeying the commandments. I promised God that I would obey the commandments if He would speak to me. Worked for me! I know that you have been on this journey for awhile and probably have encountered the info below but just in case! Like you, I also read the Book of Mormon to understand the basis of the lds religion. I got an ebook from Amazon called the 24 hour Book of Mormon (BOM) that I read while I was reading the Book of Mormon. The 24 hour version helped me to follow the plot. The Book of Mormon has flashbacks like the Tv series Lost so this book is helpful! I suggest skipping BOM chapters that mention ‘Isaiah’ in the heading. There is a great book by Ridges called Making Isaiah Easier but I would hold off for the moment. If you like you could purchase a timeline for the BOM from amazon. The website AskGramps is a great resource for cultural lds questions. Personally, I would attend church. There is a Sunday School class taught in the 2nd hour that is really great. I found the lds people to be one of the great selling points of the church. Meeting people online can be helpful but...sometimes the online personality is the part of themselves that they normally hide - for good reason! Looking at you, @mirkwood! If you, like me, are somewhat Left of center politically, don’t worry. There are many lds who share your views. Most lds people are not American. The church leadership is pro helping refugees and has set up an extensive program run on volunteer labor and funds. I can send links to freely available manuals and videos for the BOM. Let me know how it goes with the BOM! If you like you can chat with missionaries online who will be happy to answer questions about the BOM and lds life in general. https://www.mormon.org/this-is-church

Perish the thought. Why would I spend hours of my life doing something fun and enjoyable when I can sit at home staring at the wall and patting myself on the back about how I don't soil myself with children's interests?😉

Yea, what's next, still reading comics and playing Dungeons and Dragons?

Are you a legitimate brony?

Much as I like metal, they would make terrible hymns.