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Carborendum

The Tolerance of the Church

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Supposedly, our position with regard to LGBT issues has been considered "intolerant."  That seems very strange considering an experience I just recently had in the temple.

I need to point out that I didn't think anything negative about this person.  It was just a curiosity for me.  Nothing more.

I was in the endowment session and noticed the young lady (I'd estimate college years) seated in the front -- an ordinance worker.

She had blue hair, in a stereotypically lesbian haircut -- I'd call it "butch" style.  Other portions of her demeanor led me to believe that she was in fact a lesbian.  100% sure, no.  No such thing.  But for 99% sure, there certainly appeared to be a lesbian who was an ordinance worker at the temple.  Not only that, but she was a fully OUT lesbian who was proudly advertising her lesbian "identity."

She was an ordinance worker at the temple.

Upon seeing this, I don't see how on earth people can justifiably say that the Church HATES people with SSA.

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Not only that, but she was a fully OUT lesbian who was proudly advertising her lesbian "identity."

What do you mean by “she was a fully OUT lesbian?”  I cannot imagine the Church would allow anyone to promote SSA in the Temple.

 

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19 hours ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

Not only that, but she was a fully OUT lesbian who was proudly advertising her lesbian "identity."

What do you mean by “she was a fully OUT lesbian?”  I cannot imagine the Church would allow anyone to promote SSA in the Temple.

When a homosexual is "out", that means that they put themselves forth publicly as homosexual.  They make no effort to hide it "in the closet".  Does that mean they "promote" it?  I've never believed them to be synonymous.

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20 hours ago, Jedi_Nephite said:

What do you mean by “she was a fully OUT lesbian?”  I cannot imagine the Church would allow anyone to promote SSA in the Temple.

How about in the mission field?  Here is an example of a "fully out" gay guy.  

https://www.facebook.com/100030251625836/videos/451994329152284/

"Hey Friends!  My name is Elder Carpenter.  I am a full-time missionary of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I am also openly gay."

image.thumb.png.8219df1ff5daa71bf5ef6d2ea7c1dc48.png

 

That said, I don't think Carb can make such a determination based on looks alone.  

Edited by NeuroTypical

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On 3/12/2021 at 12:23 PM, Carborendum said:

Supposedly, our position with regard to LGBT issues has been considered "intolerant."  That seems very strange considering an experience I just recently had in the temple.

I need to point out that I didn't think anything negative about this person.  It was just a curiosity for me.  Nothing more.

I was in the endowment session and noticed the young lady (I'd estimate college years) seated in the front -- an ordinance worker.

She had blue hair, in a stereotypically lesbian haircut -- I'd call it "butch" style.  Other portions of her demeanor led me to believe that she was in fact a lesbian.  100% sure, no.  No such thing.  But for 99% sure, there certainly appeared to be a lesbian who was an ordinance worker at the temple.  Not only that, but she was a fully OUT lesbian who was proudly advertising her lesbian "identity."

She was an ordinance worker at the temple.

Upon seeing this, I don't see how on earth people can justifiably say that the Church HATES people with SSA.

I don't either, but regardless of anyone's orientation I thought the grooming and dress codes for the temples were a bit more conservative so as not to draw attention to the ordinance workers and away from the business at hand.

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On 3/23/2021 at 6:35 AM, CV75 said:

I don't either, but regardless of anyone's orientation I thought the grooming and dress codes for the temples were a bit more conservative so as not to draw attention to the ordinance workers and away from the business at hand.

I agree. The same should go for the young men administering the sacrament. However, sometimes we need to reach out and be more concerned for the safety and well-being of the one over the ninety and nine. We have a less-active young man who only wears a blue shirt when he comes to church. If he comes, and says he is worthy, we allow him to bless the sacrament with the others who are in white shirts. Now that doesn't mean that we should always be catering to the one, or lower our standards long-term/permanently. But, this sister in particular perhaps needs to be in the temple as it is likely the best thing to prevent her from going down a path that will not lead to happiness. If she fades away later in life, she can't say that she wasn't given every opportunity. Sometimes bending the standard down a bit to help others reach it is the best route to take. Then once they do, the spirit has an opportunity to lift them up higher up.

These cases truly are exceptions though, and many latter-day saints that I see day to day need to stop trying to make themselves into an exception.

Edited by scottyg
spelling

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On 3/22/2021 at 10:03 AM, NeuroTypical said:

"Hey Friends!  My name is Elder Carpenter.  I am a full-time missionary of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I am also openly gay."

I have to admit, I would have thought this Elder's claim and video would have resulted in some responses, especially given the topic of the thread...

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17 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have to admit, I would have thought this Elder's claim and video would have resulted in some responses, especially given the topic of the thread...

My contribution from 'For the Strength of Youth':

Quote

Homosexual and lesbian behavior is a serious sin. If you find yourself struggling with same-gender attraction or you are being persuaded to participate in inappropriate behavior, seek counsel from your parents and bishop. They will help you.

 

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18 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have to admit, I would have thought this Elder's claim and video would have resulted in some responses, especially given the topic of the thread...

What responses were you expecting?

I was only surprised that his name was not Alex Mentzel.

As far as spotting him as gay by looking at the photo?  Here's what I would say about that:

1) I don't think it would occur to me in and of itself by simply looking at the photo.
2) If someone asked me: Do you think he's gay?  I'd say, "Maybe."
3) If someone told me he's gay, I'd say "Probably right."

It isn't that people naturally have a specific feature about them that peg them as gay.  It is that SOME people go out of their way to use cultural markers to "display" that they are gay -- above and beyond simply coming out and saying so.

The young woman in the temple used these cultural markers on purpose.  This elder has perfectly flawless skin.  That is either natural, or he uses skin care and other products to achieve it.  The latter is not something straight men do at that age.

Edited by Carborendum

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On 3/24/2021 at 6:21 AM, Carborendum said:

It isn't that people naturally have a specific feature about them that peg them as gay.  It is that SOME people go out of their way to use cultural markers to "display" that they are gay -- above and beyond simply coming out and saying so.

The young woman in the temple used these cultural markers on purpose.  This elder has perfectly flawless skin.  

You simply can't tell just by looking.  The existence of "gaydar" has been debated for longer than I've been alive.  Signaling through clothing/hair/etc is certainly nothing new, but it's hardly foolproof, or even extremely reliable.  And hair color and a haircut is absolutely not a very reliable way to signal sexual orientation.   You know what other kinds of young women have blue hair and a butch cut?   Off the top of my head: Someone rebelling from parents.  Or rebelling from society or culture.  Someone clueless of how people might see it, just wanting to stand out.  Someone who got bad advice from a friend who turned out to be a "friend".  Sexual assault victims trying to keep men away by signaling they play for the other team.  And of course, not all people signal their orientation visually, so for all you know, you sat next to a guy with SSA in that session.

You absolutely might be right about the woman in the temple.  It's a valid possibility, perhaps even with high probability.  But you simply can't be certain.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

You know what other kinds of young women have blue hair and a butch cut?   Off the top of my head: Someone rebelling from parents.  Or rebelling from society or culture.

Just to point out the obvious: Young women who self-identify as "lesbian" often come from one or several of the above-mentioned classes. Among young people, homosexuality per se is bafflingly seen as cool. I don't understand why, except that Satan is abroad in the land and reigns in the hearts of the children of men.

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10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 it's hardly foolproof

I admitted as much.

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

or even extremely reliable.

I partially disagree.

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Someone rebelling from parents.  Or rebelling from society or culture.  Someone clueless of how people might see it, just wanting to stand out.  Someone who got bad advice from a friend who turned out to be a "friend". 

It is not about a single cue.  It is when multiple cues all come together that the level of certainty rises.  Also, see below.

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Sexual assault victims trying to keep men away by signaling they play for the other team.  And of course, not all people signal their orientation visually, so for all you know, you sat next to a guy with SSA in that session.

I'm certain that may be true.  I think you misunderstood my words.

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

You absolutely might be right about the woman in the temple.  It's a valid possibility, perhaps even with high probability.  But you simply can't be certain.

Never said I was.  I actually said the opposite:  No such thing as 100% certain.

You may be right that certain signals are simply "rebellion".  But what is rebellion nowadays characterized by?  I'd venture to say that for a conservative, LDS family a major display of rebellion would be to join in with the LGBT lifestyle.  The extreme would be to say "I'm not only supporting them, I AM one."

Now, I'll prepare a response for the inevitable accusations about people being born that way or not. MY POSITION: I think there is a sliding scale.

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Thanks for the clarifications.  I figure we don't have much to disagree about here. 

58 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But what is rebellion nowadays characterized by?  I'd venture to say that for a conservative, LDS family a major display of rebellion would be to join in with the LGBT lifestyle.  The extreme would be to say "I'm not only supporting them, I AM one."

Heh - you've been right for at least several decades there.   But not for nonconservative folk, they are rebelling in different ways. I'm watching nonconservatives, including some pretty dang woke progressives, take firm and rebellious stands on the following:

- No, if I choose to not date a transgender person, that does not make me a transphobe.
- Yes, I do get to be a straight person who prefers the opposite sex, no, that doesn't make me a homophobe, or in denial. (Or a fascist - for some reason, that word is the new insult of choice for a lot of people.)
- There are two sexes, with a tiny number of abnormal aberrations.  Biological sex is not a spectrum.

They're taking lots of flak for stating such perspectives, and they're absolutely in the minority in some circles.  It's an out-and-out brawl, happening in facebook groups and other platforms like TikTok.  (Google #SuperStraight if you want a taste at how angry and contentious it's getting.)

Edited by NeuroTypical

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On 3/22/2021 at 10:03 AM, NeuroTypical said:

How about in the mission field?  Here is an example of a "fully out" gay guy.  

https://www.facebook.com/100030251625836/videos/451994329152284/

"Hey Friends!  My name is Elder Carpenter.  I am a full-time missionary of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I am also openly gay."

image.thumb.png.8219df1ff5daa71bf5ef6d2ea7c1dc48.png

 

That said, I don't think Carb can make such a determination based on looks alone.  

There is no scientific (empirical) method to determine if any specific individual is gay.   One of the problems I have with the gay and lesbian culture is that they are not of necessity attracted to their same counter parts and see nothing wrong with recruiting based entirely on their attraction preference.   And yet still argue that sexual behaviors are not learned or acquired. 

 

The Traveler

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On 3/29/2021 at 4:25 PM, Carborendum said:

Cultural "cues" that someone is gay.

GettyImages-612579716.jpg.31345597add522daf5150f113f91010c.jpg

I'll...Well...Times have certainly changed since my Youth.  There is a particular item there that would have definitely been considered out of uniform back in the day.

I had to check there for a second...I'm not sure if that individual is in the US military.  The Badges and some insignia seem to be on the wrong side of the uniform...maybe they are not in the US military??  I see medals, but no corresponding ribbons...

The guy behind him has a NOSE RING?

What exactly is going on in this picture?

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On 3/21/2021 at 4:02 PM, Jedi_Nephite said:

Not only that, but she was a fully OUT lesbian who was proudly advertising her lesbian "identity."

What do you mean by “she was a fully OUT lesbian?”  I cannot imagine the Church would allow anyone to promote SSA in the Temple.

 

Does the Church have any specific standards for holiness which would preclude a person (whether
lesbian or homosexual) from serving as a temple worker?

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1 hour ago, romans8 said:

Does the Church have any specific standards for holiness which would preclude a person (whether
lesbian or homosexual) from serving as a temple worker?

The church has the Law of Chasity.  Anyone violating it is subject to Church discipline and lost of Temple privileges.

The Law of Chasity applies to all and can be summarized as No sexual relations except between a man and woman who are legally and lawfully married to each other. This is the standard for everyone but it clearly does not recognize homosexual marriages.

People who do not meet the Church standard of marriage and refrain from sexual relations do not trigger church discipline over the Law of Chasity and can serve.  No matter how they identify or what temptations they might have.

However we also need to remember the Lord's words concerning a person that Lusts after another, even if they do not reach the having relations stage.  Lusting is still a sin... even if it is common, even if it does not, by itself, trigger Church discipline.  Temptation is that initial spark, lust is when we allow that spark to catch fire, by choosing to not put it out when it happens.  This holds for everyone no matter how they identify or even if they are married. (Note that desire for ones spouse is not temptation)

 

 

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On 4/10/2021 at 8:29 AM, romans8 said:

Does the Church have any specific standards for holiness which would preclude a person (whether
lesbian or homosexual) from serving as a temple worker?

"standards of holiness" is not a phrase we're familiar with or ever say.  So you may not understand what it's really like.

And if you're of the of the "once saved, always saved" crowd, then you really won't understand it.

We have the saying "member in good standing".  This would preclude the child molester (as an example) from being a temple worker.

Edited by Carborendum

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