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  1. As a new member, I don't spend time reading the anti stuff. I never have. I've often thought, though, if people put as much time into learning about Christ and his Church as they do tearing it down once they leave, they'd never have left. Let's face it. Being a member of the Church isn't exactly easy. It would be so much easier to just agree that it was false and walk away. That just wouldn't be the truth, though, and I'd always know it.
    6 points
  2. Perhaps I’m being overly pedantic (or snobbishly legalistic), but it seems to me that much of what we call “testimony” in the church could more accurately be described as “extemporaneous inspired catechism”. There’s a place for that, sure; but I think we often fail those to whom we seek to minister when we offer our catechisms to people who were starving for our testimonies.
    3 points
  3. Once I start playing the “why did he say what he said?” or “what did she really mean” game, there’s no logical stopping point until sink into a sort of nihilism wherein I don’t believe anyone about anything. Speaking generally: sure, peer pressure to testify of the Church—or the Gospel—or Jesus—or one’s love for one’s family—is always a potential factor. But I think I owe it to most people to at least go into an encounter taking what they say at face value. If I want to dig a little deeper, and it’s important to me; I can always take them aside one-on-one later to ask them to clarify or provide additional perspective. Personally, I avoid the phrase “I know the church is true”—first, because I generally avoid the phrase “I know” in testimonies (I believe far more than I know); and second, because the more I parse the phrase the less I understand what “the church is true” actually means. (That the prophet is a bona fide prophet? Fine, say that. That there is safety in adhering to and living the lifestyle the Church promotes? Fine, say that. That the Church has a unique claim to divine favor and inspiration and authority? Fine, say that. But I don’t know what “the Church is true” means, anymore than I know what “the American Bar Association is true” means.)
    3 points
  4. I don’t quite follow the point you’re trying to make. If you think there’s such a thing as being punished for an “incomplete crime” in the US . . . Good. So does Rep. Swalwell, and I don’t understand why you’re reaming into him since he was fundamentally right in principle (if not in terminology or in application). If you don’t think there’s such a thing as being punished for an “incomplete crime” in the US . . . then you’re wrong. We convict for attempted murder, attempted rape, attempted battery, attempted DUI, attempted extortion . . . and on, and on, and on.
    3 points
  5. There is a million things to say on this topic... The “Logic vs emotion” argument often times often reveals itself to be laziness vs insight. Watch any MormonStories faith crisis interview and you will see it comes down to “Joseph Smith had multiple accounts of the first vision! I have now intellectually disproven the church and am smarter than everyone else and will now leave the church!” Or perhaps they googled “why the church isn’t true” and read that Joseph Smith looked for treasure at a few points in his life and decided the info on mormonsRdevls.net. Another thing they will say is “I was a fully active and faithful member of the church”, but then you will hear their life story and it will become apparent in many cases that they indeed were NOT. Everyone wants to be the unique thoughtful and intelligent one that left for real reasons and no one wants to or claims to be the “I left cause I was lazy” person... “I did a TON of research” often translates into watching MormonStories and reading the CES letter.
    3 points
  6. What is it about human nature that, even in the gospel, allow the entertainment of false teachings and doctrines (That people are so easily tossed by the wind to and fro)? Or, that allow individuals to take a statement, wrest it, and make it appear something it isn't in order to prosper their agenda. Here is one that I have read recently, not an exact quote, "Part of trusting God is questioning him." To give benefit of the doubt, maybe this individual was simply saying, "Part of trusting in God is asking questions and learning from him"? Although, the first statement is not simply asking a question to learn, but questioning. Christ is our greatest example, and by whom he said we should be like unto. I can't find anywhere in all scripture where Christ "questioned" his Father. He did in fact ask questions, how else did he learn? I have a friend who recently left the Church, and explains now how he has found out so much knowledge. He is very open now about how his decision was through honest inquiry and critical thinking (nothing new, this is what they all say -- similar to, "your decision is through emotion mine is through logic and history). He appears to really like this guy Anthony Miller. Anyone familiar with him? Recently my friend quoted him with the following statement given by local leaders, "Do not feed your doubt." I thought it was interesting how he would wrest the following statement saying to the nature, "For those who offer honest and critical thinking we want to know more. We want to learn more. We want to know the truth." I am surprised that someone is confusing the desire to know with the concept of do not feed doubt. We feed faith, or as God says, "It is impossible to please him without faith." More itching ears, more false teachings and doctrines from those who profess an honest inquiry of truth.
    2 points
  7. I'm going to break this down, into the sentiment and words themselves. The sentiment: hopefully everyone in the chapel on Sunday truly knows that this is Christ's Church from the bottom of their hearts. However, every person in that chapel is human, and makes mistakes. There's probably some that do truly know from the depths of their hearts. There's probably some that once did, and still claim it, but honestly have gotten really distracted with rest of life. There's probably some that are deeply searching. And there's probably some that are just coasting. The words: humans are creatures of habit. It's just easier to get up there and say things in a pre-established way, rather than figuring out how to re-invent the wheel again and again. So yeah, there is that tendency to just say "I know the Church is true" rather than re-inventing the wheel to say the same thing. It doesn't mean that the sentiment behind it is shallow -- all sorts of people are going to get up and express those words. Some people are indeed say it from the depth of their heart. Now that being said, I do find many people whom do tell their stories and express that same sentiment with different words.
    2 points
  8. I mentioned this several times in my conversion thread. As an investigator, I always thought it odd that people speaking during fast Sunday almost always included "I know this Church is true, I know the Book of Mormon is true, etc". I never took it to be the Holy Spirit compelling them to bear that testimony with those specific words. I eventually concluded that it was a cultural thing members said, just like folding arms during prayer. I never took it to be inspired, although the thought or feeling may be inspired. It's almost like a confirmation. My first visit to the church was on fast Sunday and I left wondering if people were trying to convince themselves.
    2 points
  9. No. If we are, that's our own character deficiency for being too weak to stand up to perceived peer pressure. I'm sure some people could perceive gas from spicy Mexican food to be the Spirit of God. Again, that's the failing of the individual, not of the spicy Mexican. No. We should feel compelled to bear witness as the Spirit dictates.
    2 points
  10. I have one in Cubs... I don't know if this will work for Activity Days, but I've actually changed Den Meeting lessons to account for the one Cub that is off the rails. So, we have a class on pocket knives. There's NO WAY I can trust the one Cub anywhere close to a pocket knife. So, I changed the Den Meeting to carving soap using plastic knives with the option of using a pocket knife if you have your parent in the room.
    2 points
  11. anatess2

    Cain

    My unpopular opinion (my husband and I debated this topic non-stop while driving from Florida to Ohio and never came to an agreement): The mark of Cain is a reminder to all that the judgment of life vs death can only be made by God. Therefore, taking a life (not all killing is murder) can only be done through God's judgment and not Man's. The debate between my husband and I is on capital punishment. I am not anti-capital punishment. I am anti-killing without God's authority and I do not believe that secular governments have God's authority. My husband disagrees.
    2 points
  12. This might be because English is not my first language but I see Matthew 27:46 as not the same kind of "questioning" referred to in the OP. It's like when you're looking at a word in the dictionary, there's one definition written as #1 and then there's another usage written as #2 which is different from #1... and you can't really conflate the 2. Matt 27:46 is not Jesus questioning God - especially not with the OP's nuance of coming from a default of disbelief. Matt 27:46 is Jesus falling to his human nature in complete despair - He already knew the answer to the question.
    2 points
  13. When an active member leaves, MormonStories is often in there somewhere. I probably listen to one interview a month out of curiosity. I can’t take more than that though. I find it both interesting and ridiculous the reasons why people leave. Some actually have some terrible things that happen to them and their reasons for leaving come from emotional abuse from leaders . But the vast majority of them say “I was a fully active member of the church that loved every second of it, but then I found out the truth of the church and I left”. but as they tell their life story, it become apparent that, though they attended church and held leadership callings, they really were not fully active, and many of the things they say make me question if they really understood the doctrines I’d the gospel. And for anyone who goes and listens to it or seek out the CES Letter after reading this, just know everything that is said is taken out of context or they leave out key facts to fit their narrative. Don’t just take their word at face value. FairMormon has some incredible responses to everything (and I mean everything) that is said.
    2 points
  14. I am a firm believer that we don't REALLY examine most of the words that come out of our mouth. And particularly when we are standing in front of 100-300 people. When it comes to bearing your testimony, people often mean what they mean. As you start developing your testimony, certain words may or may not find their way in and out as you seek to better define it. For me, I try not to use the words "I believe" or "I know". Believe seems to be too weak, know seems to be too strong, and saying "I have faith that..." is too wordy and almost denotes the same meaning as believe. Instead, I prefer to make declarative statements. Christ is our savior He did die for us This is God's church upon the earth Pres. Nelson is God's Prophet etc. I found that I am more comfortable making those types of declarations than I am the typical "I believe" or "I Know" But when other's say they "know" or "believe". Either those are accurate representations of how they feel, or they haven't thought about it enough to adjust their wording. In either case, don't tell a man to fix his tire when he is working on his engine.
    1 point
  15. I saw a similar thing with the same picture earlier today, except the women were the F-35 pilots and the cat was an A-10 pilot with the words Brrrrrrrrt.
    1 point
  16. Just to be the one that throws the monkey wrench into the salad...for the proverbial theoretical nonsense exercise of what should we consider inchoate or not in the reality of what is written in the law... Attempting to do something can be a crime in and of itself, which is why it is punishable under the Law. For example, Attempted Murder under Georgia Law would be defined as Which is a crime and as such can be convicted of such. Thus, it is NOT an Incomplete crime specifically as it fulfills the note of law for a completed crime (though, obviously this is just an exercise, in reality one would still see it as an incomplete crime as the perpetrator did not accomplish/complete the actual crime they had in mind). In Utah...we also see similar codes Which brings to mind as though they are determined as incomplete crimes, as the actual offense is now listed under the criminal code and one can be specifically convicted of that attempt as a crime itself, is the crime the attempted crime, or is the crime the actual law they are being convicted of? Just a silly mental exercise to be the anti-authority argument here.
    1 point
  17. I don't disagree at all. I'm often surprised by the stories people share during Fast and Testimony.
    1 point
  18. @Anddenex While on my mission I spent some time with Legrand Richards. In our discussion he made a most profound and interesting statement. Perhaps I may not remember it exactly but as best as I remember he said, "The only thing that keeps anyone from the church is sin". I know a young man that went through a divorce. He tried so hard to keep his temple marriage together - he believe the spirit was guiding him. He read scriptures daily, he attended the temple every week often multiple times a week. When he was unable to save his marriage he became very distraught. He thinks the church left him in his time of need. He has voiced to me that he is closer to G-d now than ever before - one problem - he no longer keeps the law or covenant of chastity. I personally think doctrine is overrated. Isaiah - through revelation and prophesy; instructs G-d's saints that man becomes separated from G-d not through doctrine and believing doctrine but by: #1. Transgressing the Law. #2. Changing the Ordinances and #3. Breaking the Everlasting Covenant. I have done this before but I would compare faith in G-d with faith in electrons. Because of our faith in electrons - we will use a switch to turn on lights whenever we need light. If the light does not come on - we do not lose faith in electrons - rather we change the light bulb. If the light still does not come on - we do not lose faith in electrons - rather we think the circuit breaker has cut off power. So we check and reset the circuit breaker. If the light still does not come on we do not lose faith in electrons - rather we think our light switch is broken. And so we continue to try many things without ever losing faith in electrons - perhaps concluding that something we cannot think of as the problem - but we never think or believe that electrons no longer work. This despite that we know very little about electron, have never seen one or understand much about them. We just have faith. Where does our faith in electrons (or G-d) come from? I do not believe it is because of doctrine concerning electrons. It comes from truth and being responsible - meaning the understanding that there is always a reason, weather we understand the reason or not. The opposite of logic and responsibility is the lack of faith and responsibility. Like my friend that refused to consider his own sins and desire to sin and break covenants - such that when the opportunity came - he took it. Rather take responsibility some exercise their agency and blame - either G-d, - specifically his Laws, his Ordinances and his Everlasting Covenant. The Traveler
    1 point
  19. Thanks. I think my largest concern is it affects the other children. I can handle it. I'm not a "lose your mind" type of person. It just really bothers me to see the other kids wanting to listen, wanting to participate, but they can't.
    1 point
  20. Traveler

    Cain

    When I said creditable - I was talking about methods that I understand as truth. For spiritual things, G-d has promised that there will always be two or more witnesses. The same holds for physical truths. But there are many truths that are not made manifested or of which we only have a glimpse. I personally am under the impression that there is very little of the vast cadre of truth available to us mortals. There are many questions that I have not found answers for concerning Cain and especially if he is still wandering physically on the earth and how was it that Cain conversed directly with G-d and not through channels of priesthood authority and keys? It does not mean the Cain epoch is true or false or that I should believe or disbelieve - It falls squarely in the category of "I don't know" because there are critical elements missing. The Traveler
    1 point
  21. anatess2

    This was ironic

    You gotta try Tableya - pure raw cacao instead of the roasted cacao powder. The organic cacao powder takes raw cacao and roasts it in heat so it ends up killing the enzymes that are good for cardiovascular health. Tableya is formed by cold-pressing raw cacao beans to squeeze out the fat (used for cacao butter) so all the enzymes remain intact, especially the antioxidants needed for cardiovascular health. They usually come in "coin" form. I'd ship you one of mine except I just opened my last pack. They should sell them in Asian stores that sell Filipino things. There are a few of them in Colorado Springs.
    1 point
  22. anatess2

    Christmas Party

    It would be sad to leave Saint Nicholas at the mall. The better option is to bring back Saint Nicholas especially to the children.
    1 point
  23. anatess2

    Christmas Party

    Christmas Hang-ups was the best Christmas Party we've had. We didn't do the play, rather, we did a narration in-between the songs. One of our ward members was a professional singer from South America so she sang all the Hula Girl's songs and it was awesome. Last year, we tried to do Christmas Hang-ups again but the Bishop wanted a simpler stage program (30 minutes instead of 1 hour so we can spend 1.5 hours fellowshipping with each other instead) so we took just 5 songs out of the whole thing and concentrated around the Nativity Story. What works without fail is Christmas Carols.
    1 point
  24. Fether

    Christmas Party

    I actually appreciate this comment. Though it is not a hill I would die on, as I grow older I have noticed how Santa has grown further and further out of my life and now I can honestly say Christmas is more about Christ and family and I feel better off without him. I would vote to “leave Santa at the mall”, but would also respect that vote of 90% of the ward and be just find with him coming.
    1 point
  25. anatess2

    Christmas Party

    Santa comes to our Ward Christmas Party every single year. We even had one year where he was the feature... we had the story of Saint Nicholas dramatized and we sang carols.
    1 point
  26. Sunday21

    Christmas Party

    I love the ham idea. We have turkey: messy, has to stay hot. Ugh.
    1 point
  27. Anyone in the public eye leaves themselves open to critique from onlookers. Intolerable to some may be outstanding to others. No matter what side you are on, I give him and the others a huge amount of respect for providing gospel positive content and trying to build up the kingdom of God in a world that consistently pushes the negative. If their content or personalities are intolerable, heck, feel free to produce something even better. Maybe you have? If so, please provide a link, I'd be happy to share your faith promoting content with my family. Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin - The Virtue of Kindness
    1 point
  28. Violence at a football game is utterly unacceptable.
    0 points
  29. The parents aren't there. Those are just my observations from outside the meeting.
    0 points