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When Frank Fox, former BYU professor, talks about what a miserable, evil, awful human being Donald Trump is and how he (Fox) is proudly voting for Joe Biden, I have to wonder about the cognitive faculties of many of my more educated fellow Saints. Joe Biden as a defender of faith and integrity? No one can seriously believe that.

Well, the Stake President was there and nobody pulled my Temple Recommend, so I think I'm in the clear.

I think for people like you, these types of faith crisis are so important. Some people can get away with never questioning or doubting, but you can’t and I don’t think you should pretend otherwise. In your case, I would put every possibility on the table and test it. Throw yourself up against the wall of faith and see what happens. You can’t pray for financial blessings while not be paying tithing, and then deduce there is no god when no blessings come. You can’t test God through priesthood blessings while you are also indulging in porn, and then get upset when the blessing you gave was inaccurate to what ended up happening. Test God with full purpose of heart and do it correctly. I am all for people testing the spirit and god to the best of their ability. For better or for worst (most likely better).

From the Church Newsroom - What is Religious Freedom? I suppose that means the opposite it true. As religious freedom goes down so does: prosperity, harmony and stability. Food for thought as we look around at ourselves and others.

Hate to tell you this, but Gavin Newsom is as big an idiot as Jay Inslee. And since he runs a state more than five times larger, he'll do more than five times the damage.

I would add a couple of thoughts. I have conversed with several that have experienced various "Faith Crisis". Almost always their crisis centers around either doctrine of things that do not seem to be working out with someone and "The Church". Much like your first paragraph. In short I believe such is and pseudo crisis. Please allow me to explain. I believe the real crisis deals with covenants - in particular the covenants that come with the ordinances of salvation. I will give an example - using the Sabbath. As many times as I have been in discussions about the Sabbath; it seems that such discussions are centered around do's and don't's of what is proper for the Sabbath. And it seems that regardless - the discussions is about exceptions. I see these are discussions of doctrine. And so I will inquire about covenant rather than doctrine. I will ask - "What is your Sabbath Covenant?" Few have any idea what I am asking? And so they start into doctrine, do's and don't's. And soon the question comes - "what about exceptions?" I was taught by my parents to be true to one's word. If I ever make a commitment, promise or covenant - then I am obligated to fulfill the commitment. I do not want to sound better than anyone but I think that not knowing what to do is not so much not knowing what to do as it is not wanting to do it. The Traveler

My family and I have been so grateful for the Lord's inspired home-centered, church-supported Come, Follow Me program. We live in Northern California and the limits on social interaction and gathering have become ridiculous. Take for example Gavin Newsom's recommendations for Thanksgiving. They really want us to wear our masks in-between bites during meals... https://www.newsweek.com/coronavirus-california-gavin-newsom-new-rules-gatherings-thanksgiving-1541402 https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/Newsom-s-office-says-to-keep-masks-on-eating-15635093.php We had a hiatus for a few weeks wherein we were allowed to go to Sacrament meeting at church at a reduced 25% capacity. Spacing between families, every other row blocked, universal masking, etc. I didn't like it. Now our ward is trying to implement Zoom meetings and Social media gatherings for Sacrament and ancillary services like young men and women. The local ward secretary has asked that we and some of our children give talks at Zoom church and I have declined. Only 8-12 people are allowed in the chapel at this time in our County. And because we have a large family (11 children), we would have to split up the family during these meetings. We have loved home-centered worship and will continue to follow the Come, Follow Me program, as well as providing the Sacrament for the family as we have received the OK to do so from the local Stake. We love to watch General Conference and have been supplementing our family meetings with re-runs of great conference talks from the past. I have been a proponent of moving General Conference to a quarterly timescale for some time now. D&C 20:61 The several elders composing this church of Christ are to meet in conference once in three months, or from time to time as said conferences shall direct or appoint; We will return to the chapel as soon as the hysteria has resolved but based on the predictions of our political leaders, this may be the new normal (I personally highly doubt it). The above graph is a prediction of daily California deaths by a prominent website www.worldometers. But as explained below in the link. we should be careful about where we get our information. https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2020/05/world/worldometer-coronavirus-mystery/ If you know anything about graphs, the asymptotic nature of that predictive curve is ludicrous. I know that many of the general authorities spoke on the importance of food supply and many have perhaps taken that as an indicator that things are only going to get worse. But we also continue to build new temples, and I can't imagine that temples will only be used for living ordinances in the future.

I agree with you about the need to “go into the wilderness” as much as possible—though of course, in a physical sense, I’m not sure there’s really anywhere left to go. If we can rely on the prophecies that have come down from Brigham Young, Heber Kimball, Wilford Woodruff, and the like—our lot (or those of our children or grandchildren) will be to buckle down and stay away from the violence as best we can, avoiding alliances with any of the Babylonish factions that will be turning on each other and ultimately destroying themselves. But as for the “lesser of two evils”, I would reply as follows: 1) Our current commission is that “honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil. And I give unto you a commandment, that ye shall forsake all evil and cleave unto all good, that ye shall live by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God.” (D&C 98:10-11) That instruction has not been revoked. To throw our lot in with Trump, knowing what he is, to me risks forfeiting the commission and blessings promised on American citizens in these latter days, and amounts to us choosing to have God leave us to our own strength. I understand why, in light of everything that’s happening on the left, many Saints feel they have no choice but to ally with Trump. But I also believe that there is divine precedent for God promising deliverance to His people if they would just trust Him and avoid running to the nearest strongman (this theme consumes the book of Isaiah). If God wants us to disregard D&C 98:10 and quietly submit ourselves to (and even support) leaders who are dishonest, foolish, and bad; then I’m reasonably confident that we’ll be hearing about it through proper channels. But so far, that hasn’t happened. 2) The Bible is, as you suggest, a record of a wholly different society than our own; one where private citizens could not and did not expect to significantly influence public policy. Jeremiah’s pro-Babylon agenda was not geared towards Judah’s populace, or even its rulers, helping Babylon to advance its interests or geopolitical standing; it was simply a pragmatic “look, if you fight this, you will die; so don’t fight it”. (See Jeremiah 27.) Nonresistance to a tyrant we didn’t choose, is very different than active support of a degenerate politician we did choose. 3) One issue with likening Trump to Nebuchadnezzar in this particular discussion (which, as I understand it, is the preservation of a western-style, individual-rights-oriented democratic republic as advocated by President Benson) is that Nebuchadnezzar was a *king* who oversaw high taxation, imprisonment without due process, and state-sanctioned murder and rape and prohibition of religious expression. Daniel and his friends lived out their lives as slaves (very comfortable slaves, but slaves nonetheless) to Nebuchadnezzar and his successors. Indeed, Nebuchadnezzar is the embodiment of everything Benson abhorred. If we’re at the point where we feel like, for the sake of self-preservation, God wants us to submit to someone like Nebuchadnezzar in order to prevent a worse thing from happening; then it’s probably time for us to admit that the American experiment has failed, resign ourselves to serfdom, and leave it to future generations to reclaim the traditional American liberties that we grew up with.

Laundering the money does not change where it came from. Anyone who has eyes to see knows where it came from.

There are great many things Carb said that I agree are correct. The reasons I've chosen Biden (early voting and mailing in ballots is something done this election for us) didn't really concern any of that. I agree with the idea that if Trump was impeachable than Biden should doubly be impeachable for the same offense...only thing...I didn't favor impeaching Trump over what they did. It was ridiculous and a witch hunt. Furthermore, I've been of the opinion that it isn't Russia that had it's hand at Trump's throat, but more likely the mafia (which could include, and probably does, the Russian Mafia). That may have given some people leverage, but if you look at donations and other things, Russia also has a hand in the Democrats political process quite heavily as well. Trump SHOULD be impeached, in my opinion...on other items. However, the reasons I am against Trump aren't really talked about by Carb in his post. In order of importance (currently) with me... 1. Trump mocked disabled veterans and at times, veterans themselves. He was open with it early on, has disguised it later, but it still comes out again. His mockery of those that died in war, and other things have GREATLY turned me off about him. People say all the time "thanks for your service" to veterans, but than their actions say they could care less. Trump at least is open that he doesn't care much about veterans unless it is to try to get money. He hated McCain. McCain was a hero for some in my generation. An absolute Hero. He was an ICON for many of us. Sure, he was the son of a Military leader, but his actions spoke louder than any words. He had the chance to go home because of that connection and instead stuck with the others and the men in solidarity. He went to try to rescue those left behind after the war. He suffered as others suffered and endured. Trump's opposition to McCain...not really because of politics, but on principles and foundations of military honor and service put Trump in a BAD light for me. If one boils down to it, that probably is one of the BIGGEST foundations I have against Trump is Trump's attitudes in this arena. Biden has not shown such utter disregard. Biden actually tends to be more conservative in many areas that would surprise people (one reason he is considered more a moderate than from the far left side of the Democrat party). He may not be as respectful as some, but to me, seems miles above that of Trump in this area. 2. Republicans have been hypocrites regarding the Budget. I normally favor a government where neither party has control. One Reason I supported the Republicans was that I was part of the ORIGINAL (before it was hijacked by others who could care less about this type of stuff) Teaparty movement. The idea that we need to balance our budget seems to be a good priority to me. I did not think they should have shut down the government over it in the way they did (not funding the government to pay it's debts), but I think it is an important thing. So...they get control of the government with the House, the Senate, and the Executive...you'd think they'd balance the budget. NOT SO. IN fact, with the way the taxes have gone and the spending, we are in worse shape than when Democrats were in charge! Instead of paying off the debt, or even just balancing the budget...it is waaay out of control. They HAD the power to do something...they did not. I'm NOT in favor of them right now. 3. The ACA. I'm against the ACA. I AM for a single payer healthcare type system...but NOT one which puts the power in the hands of private insurance companies. Biden is for this. Trump says he is not. It's one good thing trump did was to do away with the mandatory taxes element of it, but the Republicans did NOTHING to get rid of it. They had over 100 votes to do away with it when Obama was in power, yet...when they came to power before they lost the house...they couldn't pass that same vote once!!!??? Trump should have focused on this...he didn't. Far more than a wall with Mexico...this was a hot item to me. 4. Trump cannot deal. He says he can...but we've lost prestige and deals with other nations. We went out from the ability to really put pressure on Iran to walking out of that and having NOTHING to really help us in return. We are drawing out of Europe for what I think are dumb reasons and though we may have less drawback from angry Europeans, we also will have less influence on Europe by doing so. He has ignored military advice from military advisors on timelines for withdrawals and other things. China has GROWN in power under Trump's watch...not decreased. Biden at least has some political saavy in these areas that hopefully he can repair our relations and prestige with the rest of the world. Right now we are the laughing stocks of the world. My passport which was one of the most powerful and useful 4 years ago is one of the most useless passports in the world today because it is an American Passport. 5. Biden is actually more conservative than most think he is. Yes, he is racist. He showed he was racist in many past votes, a LOT OF this was from a more conservative background that he has. In fact, many of the things Carb points out is because Biden is a LOT more conservative than a lot of the democrats are today. Many of them are biting down and voting for him...NOT because they think he is going to be who they want, but because he is not Trump. Others are doing so in hopes that he dies or goes out of office so his Vice President gets to be in charge. In fact there is a sizeable chunk out there that hate Biden but are voting for him in hopes that they can get rid of him and have his VP be put as president in charge. Biden is conservative enough that I can live with it, even if he is more liberal than many conservatives would want. Ironically, with monetary policies, Trump actually seems FAR TOO LIBERAL to me. It's not that Biden is going to be better than Trump...but I don't know if he could be worse. 6. A divided government. My best hope for the nation right now is that we have Republicans retain the Senate (I hope so, the only poll I trust shows that this could happen, other polls I do not trust seem to indicate otherwise.) with the Democrats controlling the House and Executive. This means that they will have to work together to pass things. My worst thought is that the Democrats win control of the Executive and Congress (both House and Senate). This would be a loss for me as I think there is an extreme amount of pressure on Biden to try to pack the courts...the ONE reason I debated about NOT voting for Biden. I think if it is divided he will NOT be able to pack the courts and thus why he has been hesitant on his answer. 7. Ah yes, and cannot forget the last item. Trump's handling of the nation and his leadership in the past few months during the pandemic. If anything, he's tried to blame anything and anyone besides himself for the condition in the US right now. Instead of taking responsibility for his actions, he points fingers and tries to say it's someone or something else. He's supposed to be the most powerful man in the US right now...if ANYONE has the power to change things...HE DOES. The fact that he is trying to blame others rather than actually be in control speaks volumes to me. Even if Biden was as useless in policy, I feel Biden would have at least accepted some responsibility for the situation and expressed unifying statements to unite...rather than divide...our nation in this time. It wouldn't even take much effort (they don't even have to write the speeches, have their speech writers do it, but at least GIVE the unifying speeches). Trump has done anything BUT unite us over these past few months...and that's probably the final nail (but not the ONLY nail if you read the lengthy post above) of why I chose Biden.

This is in reply to no one in particular. I have never had (up to this point in my life) a "faith crisis". I have been told by the spirit several times that Jesus is the Christ, and that His church was restored to the earth by His prophet Joseph Smith. Each succeeding prophet since that time has held the keys necessary to move His work forward. It doesn't matter if a policy in the church changes, or if the world as a whole moves farther away from the principles of Christianity. The spirit has conveyed truth to me in a very clear way. I have received a witness the work is true, so nothing else matters. I take what comes my way with faith, and don't worry about asking why...why would I question a loving God who knows more than I do? Why would I not trust the answers He gave me? The efficacy or truth in those answers do not lessen over time, so why should my convictions? Why would I allow the opinion of another person in regards to a topic that has no real impact on my life or how I worship sway my testimony? Who really cares? Let them think what they think. The gospel is simple, and it is the adversary who constantly pushes pointless questions into people's minds - they are pointless because their answers cannot possibly be answered in this life, and their answers would really have no meaningful impact anyway. The evidences of the restored gospel that we do have strengthen my faith, but they are not my foundation...it is the testimony of the Holy Ghost. Some may call me the prototypical sheep...just blindly following what the leaders of the church tell me to do. But, the fact remains that every single trial I have had in my life has been overcome as I put the Lord first and wait upon Him. When I follow the counsel from the living prophet, I am happy, and all things eventually work themselves out. Every part of my life is better because of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and I have seen the lives of so many who leave the church fall into disarray, emptiness, and confusion. I try to help them as best I can, but I do not let their their lives or actions influence what I know to be true. The church's message is true or it isn't; so we as a people need to stop forcing some middle ground to appear. It is hard at times to be a member of this church, but life is ultimately harder when you are not a part of it. Think back to, remember, and trust in the answers that a loving Father in Heaven has given to you...not in the philosophies of men.

See, I think this is an issue that those who challenge faith run into and I have difficulty understanding why. We assume because it isn't a talk given every conference that the "Church" hasn't adopted it. Elder Bednar addressed that very point this last General Conference in his talk. President Ezra Taft Benson very directly counseled us "The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer." He didn't say "choose what we follow" or "wait until everyone in the Church gives talks on something before following it." I'm ecstatic to have anyone worship with me. The Lord's house is open to all. I've shared a pew (well, row since our tiny ward still racks chairs after every Sacrament and sets them up the next week) with drunks, atheists, Buddhists, and many other people that don't believe what I believe. I'm not sure why someone would think that I would feel differently. That said, you have to be equally comfortable with the knowledge that if you utter things that run counter to what the Lord has revealed to us through His Prophets and Apostles, I'm going to call that out and cite the people He has chosen to speak through.

1. Errors? I guess that depends on what you consider an error. What others I've spoken with in a faith crisis have considered errors I don't particularly consider to be errors as much as a distancing from the Church. 2. While ANY participation is better than no participation, all is obviously best. Follow the Prophet. If you're rejecting things from the Church, you're rejecting things from God. That's certainly a personal use of your agency, but it does come with consequences. 3. Why would you expect Christ's Church to be comfortable with heresies? Your Bishop's office is likely the space you are looking for.

That is were the failure occurs. It is not up to the Church or any Church member to "deal" with your comfort or uncomfortableness... It is on you. Both the most Faithful and the most Faithless have questions and things they do not understand or know. Thus questions and lack of knowledge is not the problem. Its the lack of faith Both of these types of people can ask fundamentally the same question but it is the faith or lack thereof that makes the difference. (For without faith it is impossible to please God) Take for example the Angel Gabriel announcements of pending births to Zechariah and Mary. Both had serious questions on how they might have a child given their situations. Yet the angels response to what was basically the same question "How" was very very different. Mary had faith and Zechariah basically did not and the Angel responded accordingly. Now members and the leaders of Church are flawed and imperfect... But it is easy to see how a statement of "I do not believe that" versus "I am not there yet" would be taken differently. Even though at the fundamental level they say express the same lack of knowledge/testimony.

In all my years of apologetics, I've never heard anything that is "bad" about the Church (that was actually true). I've heard an awful lot that is taken out of context, or incomplete information, or mischaracterizations, or a symptom of presentism, and often -- just outright lies. I've heard bad things about people (and a lot of it was untrue, but some was true). But the conflating of the two is what I find most difficult to accept from "a middle space". Of all the things i've heard, they are either perfectly fine once we see the whole story, or we understand that there is more to the story that we simply don't know yet. We can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The baby is fine. That is what is "all true". Just get rid of the bathwater that's all used and dirty. Again, this is the conflation of people in the church with the Church itself. The "Cafeteria Mormon" is merely another way of saying, you're depending on your own wisdom. You're words epistemology, soteirioligy, Christology are all about using man's methods of finding truth. What about Divine methods? The pattern I notice from all you've written here is that you're still trusting in the arm of flesh for your testimony. As a place of beginning, that's fine. That's all most of us have in the beginning. But just as Adam, we're not meant to remain in a state of ignorance. If it never progresses to the point where you're depending on the witness of the Holy Ghost, then you can only go so far. You will only be so strong. And you will eventually fall. And without the witness of the Holy Ghost, man's logic, reason, evidence, knowledge are ignorance -- nothing but sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal. You cannot stay where you are. The Lord does not want us to remain luke warm. We are not supposed to be fence sitters. Life will eventually force you to choose. I pray that you will be open to the Lord's guidance on that.

As one who judges himself in the middle of a faith crisis, here are some things I see through my glass darkly: 1) As with so many things today, it seems so polarized. The shrillest anti voices have nothing good to say about the Church, and the loudest pro voices have nothing bad to say. Here in a middle place, where it seems obvious that the Church has made errors but also contains much that is good, it feels awful lonely. It seems difficult to find people and communities to interact with that are comfortable discussing the good and the bad. 2) Related, there is a predominant "all or nothing" attitude. Many in the Church have long said something like it is all true or it is all fraud. Then the antis grab onto that, demonstrate one undeniable flaw or error in the all or nothing house of cards and claim that the whole thing comes crashing down. I find myself leaning into a "cafeteria Mormon" space, but that space tends to be maligned from both sides, and, again, you feel lonely. It's nice when you find spaces where people are talking about the things they choose to accept and the things they choose to reject from the Church -- that affirm that one can accept and reject pieces without needing to accept or reject the whole kit and kaboodle. 3) Also related is the frequent fear from the orthodox of "wolves in sheep's clothing". Of course, the antis are fond of calling the faithful mindless sheep. I know that the watchmen on the tower need to be (as Alistair Moody would say) constantly vigilant, but it is sometimes difficult to carve out a space in the Church for yourself when you feel like everyone is suspiciously watching you ready to cast you out as a wolf. It seems like it would help if there were spaces in the Church that were more comfortable with my questions and heresies rather than constantly suspicious of them. My epistemology, soteriology, Christology, and such are strongly LDS, so I am most comfortable in LDS spaces. But the things that feel wrong to me can make those LDS spaces uncomfortable as well. How the Church deals with the comfortable and the uncomfortable will impact how I move forward.

I can't disagree with you regarding the state of the union in this generation. I just disagree with your take on it. What was the "solution" in the days of Lehi? Yes, cry repentance. Turn to the Lord. And as individuals and small groups, we can. Lehi, anyone? Daniel? Today... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For others, what was the Lord's solution? Yes, he gave Israel every opportunity to repent and return to him. That is always a better solution and better scenario... if the people will actually take advantage of that option. But in Lehi's day and in our day, too many will not turn to the Lord. Sodom and Gomorrah were given SO much leeway. Only FIVE righteous people. But those five were not enough to save the cities of the plains. Instead, the Lord told them to get out while He destroyed the cities. Israel was given SO much leeway, SO many times. But no number was given. Lehi was told to leave. I'm sure others were too. But the solution was to replace all the wicked rulers with a less wicked, but still wicked ruler -- Nebuchadnezzar. Yes, yes, I've said it before. But if you can indulge your anti-Trump hobby horse again, I can indulge this parallel once again. I don't think Daniel and his friends would have ever said that Nebuchadnezzar was righteous. He even said otherwise. But he recognized the course of events that the wickedness of Israel brought upon the nation and people. And he realized they were the judgments of God. In our day, God does not raise up or take down our leaders. We elect them. As a people of differing backgrounds, oipinions, perspectives, and values, we elect them. Because of the level of wickedness of the nation, the ENTIRE nation suffers. The people simply will not accept a Ted Cruz. They outright showed they would not accept a "Bleedin' Mormon." I did an analysis of the numbers. Basically Romney lost the swing state votes by the same number of evangelical Christians in those states. The people don't want such leaders. So, we have to suffer the consequences. The Lord accepts the lesser of two evils for leaders of nations. Why is it such a crime if we do the same? We root for better; we campaign for better, we try to convince others that we should look for better. But in the end, the voice of the people goes elsewhere. And we're left with the unenviable position of the Samuel Principle. "OK, if you're not going to vote for virtuous leaders, there's nothing I can do about it. But to minimize the damage..." In the meantime, I'd echo @mirkwood's advice. Leave Jerusalem and go into the wilderness with provisions. I'm speaking metaphorically mostly. One of the reasons I chose the location I did was that I was close enough to a major city to have business dealings. But I was far enough away that the fire and brimstone won't quite hit me. Yes, if these shadows remain unaltered by the future... there may be no stopping it. All we can do is "pull a Lehi." Cry repentance, then take off.

You should be wishing THEM luck. They've unleashed the beast.

Yet...

Just because I've never been snow skiing and it's been more than 23 years since I've seen it snow in real life you think I don't know much about the subject? 😀 Though I will concede the point that fake snow is probably not celestial grade. But I'm pretty sure my aunt and other Missourians will take fake snow over the massive tectonic shifting required to get you your slopes. Nice picture by the way.