agency LDS Anarchy?

[TheMartyrSpeaks]

Is Anarchism compatible with the church? If so, should not we all be anarchists, as believers in freedom of agency?

[Just_A_Guy]

I can’t speak much as to anarchist theory; except to note that I have a hard time squaring it with D&C 134 (which, I concede, is a thorny scripture for a variety of reasons).  

But to suggest that agency = immunity from the consequences of one’s destructive actions, would be a significant flaw.  “Agency” is a legal construct, and it denotes a specific combination of choice and accountability for the choice. 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Traveler]

10 hours ago, TheMartyrSpeaks said:

Is Anarchism compatible with the church? If so, should not we all be anarchists, as believers in freedom of agency?

I do not think so - we believe in law and abiding by the law.  Perhaps you are confusing agency with free will.

 

The Traveler

[estradling75]

God is the biggest defender of Agency...

God is the biggest Law Giver and the whole plan he has is built around testing our obedience...

The two are not incompatible but we need to be careful not to advance one at the expense of the other.

 

[Fether]

11 hours ago, TheMartyrSpeaks said:

Is Anarchism compatible with the church? If so, should not we all be anarchists, as believers in freedom of agency?

Anarchy is a state of no law where we are free to act according to however we wish with no repercussions from any overarching organization.

Agency is the ability and gift to choose to act as we please, be it evil or good.

God supports agency, but he does not support the evil use of agency. 

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I can’t speak much as to anarchist theory; except to note that I have a hard time squaring it with D&C 134 (which, I concede, is a thorny scripture for a variety of reasons).  

But to suggest that agency = immunity from the consequences of one’s destructive actions, would be a significant flaw.  “Agency” is a legal construct, and it denotes a specific combination of choice and accountability for the choice. 

So many people seem to forget the accountability part of agency. 

Agency is practically the opposite of anarchy. 

[SpiritDragon]

13 hours ago, TheMartyrSpeaks said:

Is Anarchism compatible with the church? If so, should not we all be anarchists, as believers in freedom of agency?

Quote

an·ar·chy

ˈanərkē/

noun

 

1. a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.

   "he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy"

   synonyms:

   lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, disorder, chaos, mayhem, tumult, turmoil "conditions are dangerously ripe for anarchy"

   • absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

Quote

a·gen·cy

ˈājənsē/

noun

noun: agency; plural noun: agencies

1. 1.

   a business or organization established to provide a particular service, typically one that involves organizing transactions between two other parties.

   "an advertising agency"

   synonyms:

   business, organization, company, firm, office, bureau "an advertising agency"

   • a department or body providing a specific service for a government or similar organization.

     "the Environmental Protection Agency"
2. 2.

   LAW

   the office or function of an agent.

   "a contract of agency"
3. 3.

   action or intervention, especially such as to produce a particular effect.

   "canals carved by the agency of running water"

   synonyms:

   action, activity, means, effect, influence, force, power, vehicle, medium More

   • a thing or person that acts to produce a particular result.

     "the movies could be an agency molding the values of the public"

God operates a kingdom where His authority and reach are recognized and obeyed. This is not enforced by overpowering an individuals choice, but by teaching correct principles and natural consequences until people recognize what they want and act in accordance for the result, ultimately having a full understanding of what those decisions bring.

Quote

D&C 21:

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy.

Quote

D&C 130:

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Anarchy does not fit in the Kingdom of God as the Kingdom would not work properly without recognizing the authority and following the laws. It's perfectly ingenious because individuals have bought in of their own volition instead of forced to capitulate and follow while full of resentment inside and waiting for a chance to overthrow the structure.

 

[Anddenex]

14 hours ago, TheMartyrSpeaks said:

Is Anarchism compatible with the church? If so, should not we all be anarchists, as believers in freedom of agency?

Anarchy is not compatible with the Kingdom of God (Zion), which is what the Church is supposed to establish. @SpiritDragon provided a current definition of what anarchy is:

1) a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.

2) absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

The Church is to establish the Kingdom of God on the earth. This indicates 1) a higher authority than ourselves, and 2) a form of government -- a theological ideal. In this theological ideal the first law is obedience, which means a person would have to accept given authority.

In order to obey, accepting the first law of heaven, God has given us our "moral agency" which accepts we have the freedom to choose between good and evil, truth and error, light and dark, pleasure and pain -- opposites, but we do not have the freedom to choose our consequences. These consequences, law, and order are established by God - the respected authority.

In light of the definition of anarchy, as provided, the Kingdom of God (his Church) are not compatible with anarchy.

[Guest]

Expanding on JAG's reference to D&C 134:

Quote

We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society.

D&C 134:1

 

[NeuroTypical]

14 hours ago, TheMartyrSpeaks said:

Is Anarchism compatible with the church? If so, should not we all be anarchists, as believers in freedom of agency?

Kudos, by the way, on having an avatar in which you appear to be actually stroking your manly stubble.

[Guest]

58 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Kudos, by the way, on having an avatar in which you appear to be actually stroking your manly stubble.

Is that what he's doing?  I thought he was playing a harmonica.  Now, after a closer look, it looks like he's eating a hamburger.

[CV75]

16 hours ago, TheMartyrSpeaks said:

Is Anarchism compatible with the church? If so, should not we all be anarchists, as believers in freedom of agency?

Well, that's a bit extreme, like believing in love should make us all swingers.

[Guest MormonGator]

Anarchy is just as dangerous as communism. The founders idea of limited government was truly revolutionary. 

[wenglund]

21 hours ago, TheMartyrSpeaks said:

Is Anarchism compatible with the church? If so, should not we all be anarchists, as believers in freedom of agency?

According to Wiki, "Anarchism as a political philosophy advocates self-governed societies based on voluntary institutions."  And, "There are many types and traditions of Anarchism."

So, the answer to your question would depend upon which type or tradition one has in mind.

For example, Kant defines anarchism as "law and freedom without force." (see HERE) This description fits the Church, the United order,  and the millennial kingdom of God .It differs fro a Republic or democracy, which consist of "Force with freedom and law."

Where anarchy runs afoul of the gospel is in the degree to which it disavows any form of hierarchy or central government, if not also private property, as well as the extent to which it focuses on individualism as opposed to collectivism.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[NeuroTypical]

I have an anarchist arguing buddy.  He thinks favorably of the early restored church, and these days he figures we're just another evil institution run with an iron we-say-so-fist by old rich white men, just like any other institution like the government or IRS or the police or a corporation.

 

[Sunday21]

7 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have an anarchist arguing buddy.  He thinks favorably of the early restored church, and these days he figures we're just another evil institution run with an iron we-say-so-fist by old rich white men, just like any other institution like the government or IRS or the police or a corporation.

 

I wonder if you could get him to do a littl field research? Be an amateur anthropologist? Perhaps sitting in sacrament watching 1/3 arrive after the meeting starts, all those people hanging out in the hall, watch the kids wandering about during sacrament meeting....honestly my ward’s meetings should warm the heart of any anarchist! 

Actually, you could do this online. Point out that the prophet asked not to use the word ‘mormon’ then look up all the uses of ‘mormon’ Mormon Tabernacle Choir’ , MormonHub......

Trying to herd members is like trying to herd cats. He should be completely at home. 

[NeuroTypical]

3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I wonder if you could get him to do a littl field research? Be an amateur anthropologist? Perhaps sitting in sacrament watching 1/3 arrive after the meeting starts, all those people hanging out in the hall, watch the kids wandering about during sacrament meeting....honestly my ward’s meetings should warm the heart of any anarchist! 

Actually, he was forced to crowbar a few drops of begrudging respect out of himself after the MormonLeaks paystub reveal.  The senior leaders of our global church, who direct a massive financial empire, and occasionally can influence geopolitics, well, they make about as much a year as a pastor over a mid-sized congregation somewhere in the midwest.  It sort of goes against what he expects from all evil institutions - the few at the top live lives of luxury and privilege.  Not really true in my church.  Our top leaders get to leave their wage earning days behind, and keep up a travel schedule that would kill you or me, with only 2 weeks vacation a year, attending what amounts to the same 10 meetings over and over again.  Until they die.  No drugs or hookers anywhere to be seen.  It's fun watching him beat his head against the obvious truth - they do it because they believe in what they're doing.  Best he can come up with, is they do it to sucker the world into thinking they believe it, and that's how they get us. 

[MarginOfError]

3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I wonder if you could get him to do a littl field research? Be an amateur anthropologist? Perhaps sitting in sacrament watching 1/3 arrive after the meeting starts, all those people hanging out in the hall, watch the kids wandering about during sacrament meeting....honestly my ward’s meetings should warm the heart of any anarchist! 

Actually, you could do this online. Point out that the prophet asked not to use the word ‘mormon’ then look up all the uses of ‘mormon’ Mormon Tabernacle Choir’ , MormonHub......

Trying to herd members is like trying to herd cats. He should be completely at home. 

Well, to be fair, what you describe isn't Anarchy.  It's Chaos.  

Anarchy isn't really compatible with Christian ideals.  But Chaos most certainly is.

[Blackmarch]

On 9/15/2018 at 10:44 PM, TheMartyrSpeaks said:

Is Anarchism compatible with the church? If so, should not we all be anarchists, as believers in freedom of agency?

I doubt it would be 100% compatible as it's essence is not having any dedicated leader/ or dedicated government or Law and as being part of the covenant we are steeped in law and order.... however the concepts of self sufficiency and self governance that tend to get appended to anarchy are quite adoptable on an individual basis. freedom of agency is the freedom to choose who you are going to follow or who you will represent- who's name you will be taking upon you.

[JohnsonJones]

7 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Actually, he was forced to crowbar a few drops of begrudging respect out of himself after the MormonLeaks paystub reveal.  The senior leaders of our global church, who direct a massive financial empire, and occasionally can influence geopolitics, well, they make about as much a year as a pastor over a mid-sized congregation somewhere in the midwest.  It sort of goes against what he expects from all evil institutions - the few at the top live lives of luxury and privilege.  Not really true in my church.  Our top leaders get to leave their wage earning days behind, and keep up a travel schedule that would kill you or me, with only 2 weeks vacation a year, attending what amounts to the same 10 meetings over and over again.  Until they die.  No drugs or hookers anywhere to be seen.  It's fun watching him beat his head against the obvious truth - they do it because they believe in what they're doing.  Best he can come up with, is they do it to sucker the world into thinking they believe it, and that's how they get us. 

He needs to learn more about what pastor's make I think.  From what I have read a Pastor mid career makes between 40-50K.  That includes benefits from some sites.  Some more liberal sites give them up to the 70's to 80 thousand range.  Still, a Far cry from 120K.

Now, if you are talking the prosperity gospel, like Joel Olsteen types, I suppose working one's way up the ladder would make that 12K seem quite modest.

 

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/pastor-salary-SRCH_KO0,6.htm

https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Pastor/Salary

https://careertrend.com/the-average-senior-pastor-salary-12455537.html

 

People spend too much time trying to make excuses about the living expenses of the General Authorities and not enough time simply accepting it and moving on. 

I'd say avoid the assumptions of what pastors and other church leaders make and just recognize that whatever the General Authorities are getting is for them to know and for us to just say...okay...whatever.

At least it's better than in the late 19th century when they had to take out loans from the Church and would end up owing the church thousands upon thousands of dollars upon their death.

PS:  I do agree that they believe what they are doing and they have a strong faith in the Lord.  However, trying to tell others that they have compensation (and that number BASED on some stub that is claimed to be for an apostle from a "leaks" website) less than an average pastor, for those that can do just a modicum of research I don't think that's going to fly very far with them.

Edited September 17, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[Vort]

18 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

He needs to learn more about what pastor's make I think.  From what I have read a Pastor mid career makes between 40-50K.  That includes benefits from some sites.  Some more liberal sites give them up to the 70's to 80 thousand range.  Still, a Far cry from 120K.

https://www1.salary.com/Pastor-Salaries.html: The average Pastor salary in the United States is $95,109 as of September 01, 2018, but the range typically falls between $78,171 and $107,804.

Average Base Salary

Core compensation

$95,109

Average Total Compensation

Includes bonus, healthcare, and retirement

$104,288

[Just_A_Guy]

The BLS in this case corroborates with @JohnsonJones‘ data:

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes212011.htm

[JohnsonJones]

I posted several that showed the average salary lower than what you did (plus your site didn't really load well on my computer, and glass door is normally better at figuring out the averages.  IT seems to nail it in regards to many occupations).

Unless one is in California or New York city, it also seems to be about right.

I know where glassdoor and other sites get their information from.  Not sure where the ww1.salary.com gets it's from.

Finally, unless one is part of a mega church or the prosperity gospel, your numbers don't seem about right.

Still, went to www.salary.com and typed in average salary for a Pastor in Salt Lake City.

It put it between 74K to 102K.  Then asked for money.  I'll go with the glass door one.  When it is more open they likely have a larger sample.

That said, your numbers are STILL lower than the base compensation for the supposed paystubs that someone simply put up on an anti-Mormon site.

And your site is probably NOT going to convince most who are not Mormon and are able to use the internet.  It wouldn't convince me (probably because I know how much Pastor's make in Atlanta Georgia, and some other big cities and if they are just a normal pastor...your "average" salary doesn't add up unless you start saying that they are "earning" the parsonage they live in as part of what they "own" rather than granted to them like rent.

Still, not that BIG of a thing.  Even if we go by your numbers, it doesn't equal what some anti-Mormon site posted in regards to the BASE LIVING amount granted that the General Authorities receive.

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by JohnsonJones

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, Vort said:

https://www1.salary.com/Pastor-Salaries.html: The average Pastor salary in the United States is $95,109 as of September 01, 2018, but the range typically falls between $78,171 and $107,804.

Average Base Salary

Core compensation

$95,109

Average Total Compensation

Includes bonus, healthcare, and retirement

$104,288

There is no way that is the average salary for pastors. I seriously, seriously question these statistics. 

[Just_A_Guy]

I think the “mid-sized Midwest congregation pastor salary” idea comes from non-LDS scholar Jan Shipps who, when interviewed recently by the Salt Lake Tribune, gave that figure as somewhere around $138K.  I presume Professor Shipps attends a very generous/affluent congregation?