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I was just reminded if this quote by Pres Spencer W Kimball ”There is a good verbal test to apply to determine the depth of one’s conviction of sin and hence of his start on the road to repentance… Do you wish to be forgiven? Could you accept excommunication for the sin of deemed necessary? Why do you feel you should not h excommunicated? If you were, would you become bitter at the church and its officers? Would you cease your activities in the church? Would You Work Your Way back to baptism and restoration of former blessings even through years? What have you done to prove your repentance? How much did you pray before the sin? How much during? How much since your admission of it? How much did you study the scriptures before your trouble? How much since? Are you attending meetings? Paying tithing? Have you told your wife or parents? Have you confessed your total sins? Are you humble now? Is it a result of being forced to be humble? Have you wrestled with your problems as did Enos? Has your soul hungered for your soul’s sake? Did you “cry unto him” a day-long prayer and into the night and raise you voice high that it reached heaven, as did Enos? How much have you tasted? How much suffering have you endured? Is your guilt “swept away?”

You won’t be stuck, personal progression has little to do with temple ordinances. For example, I have partaken in all the ordinances available to the average adult in the church. But right now I’m working on having more meaningful prayer and scripture study. I have changed so much more over the past 6 months in trying to work on on that than I did in the 3ish hours that made up my temple endowment.

@Junior, here is the truth. You can change wherever you want. You don’t need this church to change and become a better person. But to become the best person and to spend eternity with our Heavenly Father, you absolutely need the church and to listen to its leaders. I had a bad pornograohy addiction growing up. Amidst this addiction I had 3 different bishops that I confessed to. The first bishop was very soft, told me that this was normal and that I should continue trying to overcome this. Nothing changed. The second bishop was absolutely appalled (and discovered later that he didn’t believe in sexual addiction or any kind). He paid for me to see a counselor and that was it. Nothing changed. The third bishop I had revoked my temple recommend, barred me from the sacrament, and met with me every week. Here is where the biggest change came from. You have that third bishop I wish I had when I had the first and second. This church isn’t meant to just make you a “good” or “better” person, but to make you like Christ in every way. In order to do that, you need to follow the leaders that are over you. The things you are arguing for are not backed up by ANY of the general authorities in the church. Your views to not match the views of the church you are trying to argue your way into. Doesn’t this bother you??? It should either 1) convince you tht you are wrong and should follow the direction of the bishop, or 2) realize you don’t REALLY believe in the church as being Christ’s true church

When we talk forgiveness we generally mention D&C 64: 9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. 10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. This is a hard thing. The Lord knows this. It is made even harder when we have a misunderstanding of what forgiveness means... The Lord however makes it very clear in the very next verse what forgiveness really is 11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds. When you can truly turn it over to God for re-balance and redressing of the wrong done to you that is forgiveness. Please note this in not the same as trust. Trust is earned. If you wouldn't trust a stranger then there is no reason to trust again someone who has broken said trust. With trust you just be careful you are not being punitive about it (aka you would trust a stranger but you refuse to trust them)

Your question immediately brought to my mind the talk from last conference by Jeffrey R Holland (Sunday morning) “Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven,”11 Christ taught in New Testament times. And in our day: “I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.”12 It is, however, important for some of you living in real anguish to note what He did not say. He did not say, “You are not allowed to feel true pain or real sorrow from the shattering experiences you have had at the hand of another.” Nor did He say, “In order to forgive fully, you have to re enter a toxic relationship or return to an abusive, destructive circumstance.” But notwithstanding even the most terrible offenses that might come to us, we can rise above our pain only when we put our feet onto the path of true healing. That path is the forgiving one walked by Jesus of Nazareth, who calls out to each of us, “Come, follow me.”13

You know guys, I've been thinking. Think of how every story has two sides, and that the person telling you the story tends to sugarcoat the story to make themselves look better (sometimes consciously, sometimes without realizing it.) Now consider how bad this person appears to be messing up, and we're hearing all of it from his side! Just imagine how much worse the reality probably is. This thread has made me feel very grateful that we have Bishops, and that the one we're talking about here is out there doing his job diligently. @Junior your bishop is doing a fantastic job. If you're wise enough to start listening to him and following his directions, you will do very well. Put aside your complaints and defensiveness and open up your mind and heart. I nominate this line as the goofiest thing said in this entire thread. This line alone would be enough to make me start suspecting this is just a trolling. These posts hit all the right nerves, don't they? If this is trolling, it's quite well done. Junior is either a troll (am I the only one who noticed this person put "female" in the 'gender' field on their profile?) or someone who's so stubborn that his mind isn't going to be changed by a bunch of us on this forum trying to point out his errors. He either gets it or he doesn't, and I suspect the only one who can get through to him will be the Spirit. It's out of our hands. Let's just let his Bishop do his job, which so far he seems to be doing admirably. (Assuming this tale is even true.)

He's treating you harshly because you're being a prideful unrepentant sinner, and are rejecting the counsel and advice of the Lord's representative. You are flirting with open apostasy and are moving towards more formal church discipline. All of that leads to more bad and less good, and your Bishop is hoping you'll choose actions that will lead to more good and less bad. This is the conclusion I reach after reading your story, in your words. Who can you complain about him to? You'll find sympathetic ears in the ranks of church critics and bitter former members. I'm not suggesting you do that. I'm suggesting you reverse course and humble yourself. Big decisions here - here's hoping you keep God and the church in your corner as you make them.

I was a visitor at a ward today. The woman next to me had a young daughter that climbed over me 2 dozen times, picked the patches off my bag, and drooled all over my leg. The poor woman wouldn't stop apologizing, but I loved every minute of it.

“New and fresh”? Theft, murder, and radical veganism are literally as old as Cain.

Forgiveness and trust are two VERY different things. Forgiveness is you taking your anger/bitterness/hurt, and laying those emotions at Christ's feet. And then letting Him heal you. It's between you and God. Trust is between two mortals. It is something that has to be earned through repeated showing. It is entirely possible to forgive and not trust that person again. In fact, for major sins, that's commonly the advised road to take.

If your girlfriend cheated on you-- full blown slept with someone else, then lied to you. And then you found out, and she promised to be loyal to you. But then she kept not following through with those promises, kept hanging out with the adultery guy (but she swears nothing is happening between them). She tells you that she'll be here for you, but keeps standing you up on your dates. Would you say that after 6 months of this everything is totally fine between the two of you and that she's ready to make the next level of commitment?

I just wanted to go before the baby was born, because that was a timeline I decided, so the baby would have a dad who is temple worthy and I want to be able to give the baby a blessing. If I am constantly told I am not good enough to go to the temple for 2 years then I don't know if I will be able to stay in the church because I will get worn down.

Also, I do go outside the temple often because I drive my mom and my siblings there and wait for her sometimes in the grounds but sometimes I have to go to work.

This line right here is incredibly revealing. The church is clearly nothing more than just a social club to you. If you REALLY believe that this was the true church and the only church that offered exaltation, you would not be saying this. Part of repentance is turn from sin and TO God. You seem to have only shift your footing away from sin and towards some moral law that allows membership on a club.

Not a chance! My guess is that you are: an underemployed writer looking for some entertainment or that you are writing a young adult novel. If you are not currently doing some writing, you should be. In 15 years of marking essays and responding to student emails, I have rarely encountered anyone who writes as well as you do.

One way to look at it is, since we lack the capacity of God to look upon men's heart, God has made restitution (including restoring lost trust) a part of the repentance process, and not a part of forgiveness process. Also, forgiveness may rightly be viewed as a way of unburdening the victim rather than entirely absolving the perpetrator. Thanks, -WAde Englund-

it is so very painful at times. young single adult life is definitely beating me quite a bit, ha ha. thank you for the virtual hugs and love. ❤

You totally missed the point. No, you won't be related to her. Associated, yes; related, no.

I spend my life responding to emails from people in their twenties. The sentence structure and syntax displayed in Junior’s messages is remarkably mature. I strongly believe that this person is not a young adult.

Junior at this point I am not sure what you are expecting anyone to say to you. All responses have been along the same lines, and you have received some heartfelt and wise counsel from a number of people who don't know you and can only judge your situation (notice NOT judging you) from how you have represented yourself here. Continuing to repeat yourself will not help you to understand any netter our points of view. All that is left is for you to pray with an open heart and mind for further enlightenment and counsel with your Bishop, who is doing his level best to support you.

“Sometimes Mutual night can be built around a fun activity, such as having a game night, playing sports, or doing service projects. And sometimes it can be more serious, with discussions on standards.” (https://www.lds.org/youth/article/what-are-we-doing-at-mutual?lang=eng) Mutual is not meant to always be a serious lesson or service project on church topics. A spa night is a great thing to do, as is basketball and a rough match of dodgeball. But in all things there is balance. Wholesome activity with wholesome people is just as testimony building as a service project competition or visit to an elderly home. My two most memorable mutual activities were 1) playing football with the other youth and leaders and 2) practicing teaching the missionary lessons.

@GaleG, There's a book called "Lehi in the Desert", which you can read online for free at that link, which gives a lot of cultural / historic / geographic background information, making it easier to understand the story at the start of the Book of Mormon. (The other 2/3 of that book cover similar things about the people in the book of Ether (later in the Book of Mormon).) Just mentioning in case you want to read. It's a very easy read, much like reading a novel.

I have found that the sense that we have to prove something can be our downfall. Faith, hope and charity do not engender that feeling since our focus is on witnessing of God and not of ourselves. And what do we really need to prove to God if we are upright in doing “all we can do” in relation to receiving His grace anyway? “I will prove to Thee” vs “I will do They will” are two different things, and I think from the Pearl of Great Price, we can see how this is reflected in the approaches taken by Lucifer and Jesus. The devil is a liar, so I’m not sure whether or that he was even able to deliver on his claims. But assuming he was, and that it was he and not the Spirit that took Jesus from place to place, Jesus won anyway. When the JST mentions the Spirit taking and showing Jesus the pinnacle of the temple and the kingdoms of the world, this is consistent with the practice of the devil countering, interrupting and molesting the prophets before and after their revelations. It is said that the devil only has as power has we grant him. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1987/10/the-great-imitator?lang=eng : “…I do not really think the devil can make us do anything. Certainly he can tempt and he can deceive, but he has no authority over us which we do not give him. “The power to resist Satan may be stronger than we realize. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him. The moment we revolt at anything which comes from God, the devil takes power” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938, p. 181). “He also stated, “Wicked spirits have their bounds, limits, and laws by which they are governed” (History of the Church, 4:576). So Satan and his angels are not all-powerful.”

Going even deeper, the purpose of the test isn't just to determine if we will choose good or evil, but it is also a means for increasing in faith and experience so that, ultimately, we may be able to better see /comprehend the Father in ways far advanced than during the pre-existence, where we had the Father always before our eyes. In other words, to fully know God necessitated that, for a time, He be hidden from us. Not knowing God or knowing of Him, is the beginning of the process of knowing Him better. It requires, as symbolized by Abraham, that we leave our home and parents and journey to a strange land. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

No I don't except my mom but I spoke to her a lot and she always just says she doesn't know and I should speak to the Bishop, which is really unhelpful. I have an older brother but he is a missionary so we don't talk much and then I just have family in Tonga but my mom wouldn't want me to talk about it with them because she is ashamed that my girlfriend is going to have a baby. Yeah he has been harsh with me in that way too. He hasn't told me well done ever and I have changed so much from when I first spoke to him. I just want him to give me some indication I am doing better instead of always telling me what I did wrong . I just want some love from him because I cared about his opinion so much but he keeps making me feel like I am failing.

Junior, I’m not a mental health professional, but I work with a lot of them. What you have written above is not by any means a normal thing to write. It goes far beyond typical teenaged-male immaturity. It is an attitude I typically see professionally in parents who have been diagnosed with some sort of psychopathology. I am not equipped to address anything like that, and it’s rather unsporting for us to keep showing rhetorically just how wrong you are given the traits or disorders you are most likely grappling with. I strongly encourage you to get a neuropsychological evaluation, and I wish you success in your future endeavors.

*hugs* I know it's frustrating and it can be painful at points. You're doing the right thing though, stay the course.

You’ve been doing the right thing so far. Keep at it. Attraction is temporary, and love dies of starvation unless you deliberately do things to feed it. Don’t feed it, and eventually things will get better.

This post doesn't ring true. Anyone else get the feeling that the hook with its worm are being pulled along enticingly in front of us? There you go. Truthful words often hurt when we don't want to change. That's part of the challenge of humility. Do you see a problem with this—engaging in a sacred ordinance that you have been explicitly told NOT to engage in by him who holds the keys of determining such things? Temple recommend interview? Are you serious, Junior? You need desperately to get your life in order and get back on the tracks before you even consider scheduling a temple recommend interview. Wait at least until your broken leg is set before you sign up for the 10K. What do you think repentance is, Junior? Do you think it's a checklist of things you run through and then you're forgiven? You IMPREGNATED your girlfriend. This is a major thing. It changes your life and everything about it. You have created life with a woman who is not your wife. This is not a minor indiscretion; it's a huge deal. Your legalistic picking at whether you've been "forgiven" or not is so wrong-headed that I am having difficulty finding words to express how wrong you are. Quit worrying about going to the temple soon. Quit worrying about how "unfair" you think the bishop is being. Humble yourself! Do whatever the bishop instructs! Quit "defending" yourself! Open your heart, drop the bad attitude, and get your life straightened out. For some reason, this is extremely hard for you to see, but it's crystal clear to all of us on the outside.

Wanting to go to the temple is a GREAT thing. But there still needs to be a lot of time and change in order to get there.

You need to keep on the course of righteousness with steadfastness and humility. Such intrinsically takes time and keeping at it-- just like recovering from any other wound. Your spiritually shattered leg is now in a cast, but you need to let thing have time to heal- which doesn't mean running any marathons right now. Getting mad at the doctor (aka bishop) for telling you this is not helping your case or showing the humility a disciple of Christ should have.

Hi Junior. I'm going to reply to your post point for point because I think there's a lot worth mentioning. I'm going to be blunt because I want to be clear. Please do not take offense. I'll tell you right now I agree with what @NeuroTypical said, I just want to add my own comments to his. It was, assuming that you had truly stopped sleeping with your girlfriend. If you did, then all is well up to this point. Of course he was. You're having a child and don't want to form a family unit with the child's mother. Had you broken up with her by this point? Well, this isn't enough information to be sure, but my guess is that at this point it looked like you were abandoning this child. That's not okay, and you won't get a Temple Recommend in such a case. He probably said that because it sure looks like you were being prideful and selfish. The very fact that you're telling us how insulted you were confirms it. Brother, look at it this way: You walked into the Bishop's office, you told him you were gong to be having a child out of wedlock and had no intention of changing that. Then you wanted a Temple recommend on the grounds that you wanted to go with your mom. So far, nothing in this story shows you were willing to be humble and repentant, and obey instructions by your Priesthood leader. You say you let it go out of respect for him, as if it was you doing him a favor. Brother, you've got this backwards. Ok so you confess that you're living with this woman, outside of marriage, and you disagree that this is sinful? Dude, seriously. This is a very prideful statement. Of course he told you to stop taking the Sacrament. You were living in a sinful situation and showing no signs of remorse or repentance. You didn't agree with him so you ignored his instructions and did whatever you wanted. Good that you moved out, but your demand for a recommend interview so quickly leads me to believe you don't understand the seriousness of this situation. And he is correct. No, brother. It is you who do not understand. You repented of the fornication and completed the repentance process. You then went on to: Refuse to marry the woman once you discovered she was pregnant. (Are you taking responsibility for any of her medical expenses? Will you pay child support if you don't marry her? Move in with her in a sinful living arrangement. Did you sleep with her? Ignore the Bishop's instructions and took the Sacrament even after being told not to. And you think you're not in another repentance process? You think you're worthy to enter the Temple? Honestly? Complain to the Stake President. Maybe you'll listen to his counsel. He's not being harsh, though I bet he's exasperated with you. He's trying to get through that prideful attitude you seem to have. I really think you need to spend some time thinking about how you've been approaching this. Pray, fast, and really think about it. If you were in my ward I'm positive my Bishop would have been the exact same way, and he's one of the finest people to ever walk the Earth.

I am sometimes grateful for the young children wandering through sacrament. Sometimes speakers talk for 1/2 an hour on their memories of childhood Christmas traditions or why they love our country. I think that they mean to be heartwarming. I guess that listening to such talks is an exercise in patience but sometimes I am just dying for relief. Having small children wandering around is a blessing at such times. I remember one long talk which seemed to the speaker’s response to a private discussion between two ward members about their differing opinions with respect to a talk given at a funeral in the early days of the church. The speaker had his own views about the interpretation of this funeral speech and while the ward member had another. My guess is that this disagreement was years old and this was an opportunity to recruit followers to his side of the argument. I have no idea what the actual bone of contention was nor any idea what general gospel principle was involved. The speaker was enjoying himself a great deal to the extent that he actually changed colour in his face throughout the talk. To obtain some relief, my friend and I tried to capture a few children as they wandered by. No luck. There was a Mom in front of us who was struggling with 3 toddlers. We asked if we could help. Sadly Mom was too embarrasssed by her situation to share and even apologized for the behaviour of her children. Honestly if it were not for small children weaving their way through the congregation I think I would lose my mind at times.

I think about everyone has had that moment where the kid crawls away. And that moment where the kid finds the piano and play his favorite tone (aka slamming his hands down on the keys). And the moment where he tries to eat something he shouldn't. Don't be so hard on yourself-- this stuff happens. Just keep at it, and don't expect perfection.

As a single parent who moved to a new ward with a 2 year old baby after my husband left, I keenly remember this experience and felt your pain for a while. Before this I went to church alone with a baby as my husband was not a member. I just went because I needed to take the sacrament. Children pass through this phase with a little perseverance and pre planning; although at the time it can seem like an eternity and things will never get better. I had a very energetic son, so would take him to the park on the way to church so that he had time to run around and wear himself out. Being English this often involved wellies and a big coat and a change of clothes for when we got to the chapel, but it made the day easier for him. I am naturally a reserved person and would prefer my own space, but found that my son settled best if I sat in the middle of a pew surrounded by people. This meant that I found out that members were very happy to have a "small" sit and quietly chat to them (to my surprise especially the older ladies who I had mistakenly assumed would be irritated by him). Crayons and paper would help him sit stiller, or sitting on my lap and playing boo with the members in the pew behind could keep him entertained for a good 10-15 mins. Finger games like incy-wincy spider were also a useful distraction I also trained my son at home to have short periods (starting with just 1 minute) where he sat still on my lap and we had quiet time every day. This helped him to be able to sit still and learn to entertain himself with his imagination. It's a skill that helps children in school too and increases their concentration time. Don't worry about what other people think - just do what's best for you and your son. On the worst days I just had to chant to myself "this too shall pass" We did survive this, and thinking back on this has reminded me of some of the fun times we had when he was a tiny tot - and now with the passage of time I find myself smiling at these memories.

Yes, willfully turning your back on Heavenly Father to live a life of sin without repentance is certainly the wise choice and a fast track to exaltation. I'm sure you know more than His chosen and He'll thank you for setting him straight on judgment day. Good Luck.

I can understand being excited to see one of the Apostles. But, I admit it bothers me a bit when Elder Uchtdorf comes into view and the women standing in line to go into the conference center get a little crazy. It’s like they suddenly turn into 13 year olds swooning over a young Donny Osmond. Yes, Elder Uchtdorf is a handsome man, but I don’t think it’s becoming of adult women to act like teenagers over him. I Don’t know if that is a “problem” or not.

Polar @Vortex I didn't feel it worth the energy at this past-bedtime hour to pretty up the image any more.

Does this help answer your question?