Gross Tithing, Gross Blessings. Net Tithing, Net Blessings

[Backroads]

Ran into a tithing discussion on Facebook, and to my surprise a repeated comment rubbed me the wrong way.

The question began with just what income/increase/services/returns/social security/investments are we supposed to pay tithing on? (Cue Backroads: finances are soooo booorrrrrring).

Now, because of the bore that is finances, I would never judge another's interpretation of tithing.

However, every other person was chiming in with the cutesey chant of "do you want gross blessings or net blessings?"

And for some reason, it drove me bonkers.

It made it sound tithing was not a commandment but a... Blessing grab.

As I currently understand it, there is no official accountant-approved calculation for determining one's 10% increase tithe, just a 10% determined between one and the Lord.

I do not doubt the miracles and blessings associated with tithing, but I don't know if I'm comfortable with the notion of "net/gross blessings".

 

[NeuroTypical]

The official accountant-approved calculation for determining one's tithe, is "10% of your increase".  How you define increase is between you and the Lord.  

Anyone preaching anything beyond that, is preaching false doctrine.  Someone who has an opinion on the matter (as we all must in order to consider ourselves full tithe payers) gets to advocate for their opinion I guess.  They can claim their opinion is right, and provide evidence and argument to support their opinion until they're blue in the face.  It remains their opinion, and nothing more.  Unbinding on anyone besides them (and possibly those within their stewardship).

 

[Fether]

12 minutes ago, Backroads said:

Ran into a tithing discussion on Facebook, and to my surprise a repeated comment rubbed me the wrong way.

The question began with just what income/increase/services/returns/social security/investments are we supposed to pay tithing on? (Cue Backroads: finances are soooo booorrrrrring).

Now, because of the bore that is finances, I would never judge another's interpretation of tithing.

However, every other person was chiming in with the cutesey chant of "do you want gross blessings or net blessings?"

And for some reason, it drove me bonkers.

It made it sound tithing was not a commandment but a... Blessing grab.

As I currently understand it, there is no official accountant-approved calculation for determining one's 10% increase tithe, just a 10% determined between one and the Lord.

I do not doubt the miracles and blessings associated with tithing, but I don't know if I'm comfortable with the notion of "net/gross blessings".

 

Though I never did the chant, I was for a long time a gross-tithinger. But someone (on this site I believe) pointed out hat of you paid on gross in a European country that had higher tax, you would end up with a unlivable income. 

My personal approach to living the law of tithing is still tovoay gross. I’m paid 1099 so I don’t have taxes taken out from my paycheck and instead I pay it all during tax season. Because I don’t know how much I will make in the year, tithing on “ net” would be difficult.

Additionally, it does not make sense to pay on net cause taxes are just another expense. If I were to justify that taxes deduct from my “increase”, then shouldn’t I be able to justify that my monthly rent, insurance cost, grocery cost, gas and electric,  etc all deduct from my “increase” too? I would end up paying next to nothing in tithing. 

That is my opinion but I don’t try to preach it cause I know there isn’t any official declaration on it. I just don’t feel right pay tithing on net.

And the chant seems stupid to me 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Fether

[mirkwood]

22 minutes ago, Backroads said:

 

However, every other person was chiming in with the cutesey chant of "do you want gross blessings or net blessings?"

 

The epitomy of self righteousness.

[Midwest LDS]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

The official accountant-approved calculation for determining one's tithe, is "10% of your increase".  How you define increase is between you and the Lord.  

Anyone preaching anything beyond that, is preaching false doctrine.

This! The Lord intends for us to consult with him on an individual basis in order to determine what "10% of our increase" means to us. If he meant it to be set in stone, he would have told us specifically that he means gross or net. I have felt inspired at different times of my life to pay gross and to pay net. Both times I made my decision based on the guidance I was receiving from the Holy Ghost. 

[Grunt]

3 hours ago, Backroads said:

Ran into a tithing discussion on Facebook, and to my surprise a repeated comment rubbed me the wrong way.

The question began with just what income/increase/services/returns/social security/investments are we supposed to pay tithing on? (Cue Backroads: finances are soooo booorrrrrring).

Now, because of the bore that is finances, I would never judge another's interpretation of tithing.

However, every other person was chiming in with the cutesey chant of "do you want gross blessings or net blessings?"

And for some reason, it drove me bonkers.

It made it sound tithing was not a commandment but a... Blessing grab.

As I currently understand it, there is no official accountant-approved calculation for determining one's 10% increase tithe, just a 10% determined between one and the Lord.

I do not doubt the miracles and blessings associated with tithing, but I don't know if I'm comfortable with the notion of "net/gross blessings".

 

We must be in the same circle.  It drives me bonkers as well.  Our directive seems to be very clear in principle, with required interpretation of practice.  "10% of increase" is very specific, with the supposed understanding that our prayerful deliberation will reach the understanding of what the total "increase" is.  

Gross and net blessings makes it seem like there is a correlation between the size of the tithe and the size of the blessing.  Nowhere does it seem to imply that 11% will bring you greater blessings.   MY interpretation, and mine only, is that the 10% tithe is just as it states.  If I feel I should donate more, there are other blocks on my tithing slip I could put that money into.

[Just_A_Guy]

The idea of “I obey moral standard x because I expect blessing y in return” is, as I recall, a legitimate stage Kohlberg’s scale of moral development; and I don’t begrudge anyone if that’s where they are.  But . . . We are expected to move beyond that stage; and it’s disappointing when a seemingly disproportionate share of the Church’s discourse/curriculum seems tailored to appeal to folks who are at that particular stage.

That being said, the “net-tithing net blessings” has a kernel of truth underlying it—not that there’s a strictly transactional relationship to tithing; but that tithing is an application of the Law of Consecration and that if we go into it looking for ways to get by doing the bare minimum, we are spectacularly missing the point of the principle and probably limiting the joy and personal growth that comes from sincerely and selflessly living a consecrated life.  

[Guest Mores]

5 hours ago, Fether said:

...But someone (on this site I believe) pointed out hat of you paid on gross in a European country that had higher tax, you would end up with a unlivable income...

This is a conclusion based on false data.  Many people point to France as having a marginal tax rate of 70%.  Not quite.  It may be that Japan does (currently the highest marginal tax rate of any developed country).

https://tradingeconomics.com/france/personal-income-tax-rate

• The progressive tax structure of France doesn't go to 70% as is commonly reported.  It was around 70% in the past when one considers their equivalent of FICA, etc.  But they've lowered it a few points.
• Charitable donations (including to churches) are not just tax deductible.  They qualify for a tax credit up to 66% (which is approximately the current total income tax including the add-ons (FICA equivalent, etc).  So, basically, tithing helps a lot more there than it does here.
• Most people don't understand marginal tax rates.  But theirs is comparable to ours.

Essentially, we're worse off paying tithing than the French are.  We're doing fine.  So, will they.

If you want to go along with the net tithe payers, that's between you and the Lord.  But don't justify it based on faulty data.

[person0]

I would suggest that if we weren't all too lazy to do it and if so many people weren't inordinately wasteful, the most accurate way to calculate tithing could be to determine one's total net worth as of January 1st of each year and to make a lump sum payment equal to 10% of the increase in net worth over the prior year.  Something like that is how I presume Abraham paid his tithes.

Given that most people don't live or account in such a way that would enable them to do that, I think people need to shut their traps and just teach that tithing is on 10% of our increase as the scriptures state and let people figure out what that means between them and the Lord.  I have no problem with someone stating the specific way they pay tithing, but imposing their view upon others is inappropriate, especially as it pertains to tithing.  If one lives the law of tithing, they live the law of tithing, and that is sufficient to merit any associated blessings.

Edited December 29, 2019 by person0

[Backroads]

I have no problem with people expressing their particular payment system for tithing, or the logic/emotions used to reach said conclusions.

But I do find myself bothered by a need to find and declare rules, even admittedly unofficial rules.

@Just_A_Guy mentioned a certain increase of blessings that come from truly following the Lord. I certainly won't argue with that (and your post and thoughts were lovely).

The principle is what is and is presently defined as it is. I think those willingly trying to build the kingdom will receive blessings as JAG described. But I don't think "tithing based on X financial calculations" will receive more/less blessings based on such calculations alone.

 

 

[Guest Scott]

From the Church website:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2008/02/to-the-point/do-i-pay-tithing-on-my-income-before-taxes-are-taken-out-or-on-what-i-receive-after-taxes?lang=eng

[Vort]

The "net income/net blessings" idea is a humorous response to those in the Church (and they constitute a large minority, if not a majority) who treat tithing as a tax of some sort, and thus seek to find ways to minimize it. Such an attitude is completely out of synch with the spirit of the law of tithing, indeed with the very idea of consecration. In that sense, "net income/net blessings" represents a profound truth.

The problem with "net income/net blessings" is that it is not literally true, but many want to try to hold it up as claiming to be so. And I am sure that there are some Church members somewhere who actually do believe that God will apportion out blessings prorated to the way you pay your tithing. But this is surely an attitude held only by children and the very naive. I have seen no evidence that very many Church members, specifically including those who say things like "net tithing/net blessings", believe it as a true quid pro quo.

So in the end, I come down on what I perceive as the true meaning of the "net income/net blessings" side.

[Just_A_Guy]

50 minutes ago, Vort said:

The "net income/net blessings" idea is a humorous response to those in the Church (and they constitute a large minority, if not a majority) who treat tithing as a tax of some sort, and thus seek to find ways to minimize it.

(Threadjack warning)

Ironically, it seems most of the folks who vocally equivocate tithing with taxes and seek to justify minimizing their “obligations” thereunder, have no problem with taxation—and the higher, the better—as a political principle; and indeed they can be quite vicious towards members of civil society whom they deem to be “not paying their fair share.”

[zil]

1 hour ago, Scott said:

From the Church website:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2008/02/to-the-point/do-i-pay-tithing-on-my-income-before-taxes-are-taken-out-or-on-what-i-receive-after-taxes?lang=eng

Quote

The First Presidency has answered this question in this way: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970).

In other words, the way you define your income, and consequently your tithing, is a matter between you and the Lord. Prayerfully seek the Lord’s guidance on issues like taxes, gifts, scholarships, and other matters to determine what qualifies as a full tithe.

(Emphasis mine.)  Response from hypothetical person: "But it's so much easier to use a mathematical formula than to prayerfully seek the Lord's guidance!"

[Anddenex]

So, if I pay 20% tithe (which the way some define "increase" might only be 5% of my income) does that mean I receive a gross += blessing?

[Vort]

14 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

So, if I pay 20% tithe (which the way some define "increase" might only be 5% of my income) does that mean I receive a gross += blessing?

Not to rain on your fun parade, but tithing means 10% by definition. Not just LDS definition, by the way. The word "tithe" comes from the Old English word teoþa, which is the ordinal number "tenth".

Edited January 2, 2020 by Vort

[anatess2]

On 12/29/2019 at 6:12 PM, zil said:

(Emphasis mine.)  Response from hypothetical person: "But it's so much easier to use a mathematical formula than to prayerfully seek the Lord's guidance!"

"In that case, the bishop has your formula.  Go talk to him."  

 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Anddenex said:

So, if I pay 20% tithe (which the way some define "increase" might only be 5% of my income) does that mean I receive a gross += blessing?

If you thought you were paying tithes but it actually ended up to be 20% of your increase you don't receive gross += blessing... you still get the blessing of an obedient tithe payer like everybody else.

If you thought you're going to pay 2 tithes to rig the system in your favor, kinda like investing 20% on your 401K instead of just 10% to get a higher company match... you get the same blessing as those who didn't pay tithes... because you didn't really pay tithes, you made a hopeful investment.

But, what do I know.  I'm just a random gal on the internet.

[Traveler]

@Backroads I agree - Tithing is a covenant not a means for blessings but a means of sacrifice and discipline.   Sacrifice and discipline is a means of power - to choose one's destiny, one relationship to G-d, to others and to one's self.  Blessing are a byproduct that if desired for purpose will turn sacrifice and discipline into prideful selfishness and self destruction (the error of Lucifer). 

 

The Traveler

[CV75]

On 12/29/2019 at 10:05 AM, Backroads said:

Ran into a tithing discussion on Facebook, and to my surprise a repeated comment rubbed me the wrong way.

The question began with just what income/increase/services/returns/social security/investments are we supposed to pay tithing on? (Cue Backroads: finances are soooo booorrrrrring).

Now, because of the bore that is finances, I would never judge another's interpretation of tithing.

However, every other person was chiming in with the cutesey chant of "do you want gross blessings or net blessings?"

And for some reason, it drove me bonkers.

It made it sound tithing was not a commandment but a... Blessing grab.

As I currently understand it, there is no official accountant-approved calculation for determining one's 10% increase tithe, just a 10% determined between one and the Lord.

I do not doubt the miracles and blessings associated with tithing, but I don't know if I'm comfortable with the notion of "net/gross blessings".

I don't blame you. It is strictly between an individual and the Lord, even if they get "cutesy"* about it, which isn't an especially good thing for that relationship!

*Moroni 7:6-10: without real intent (calculating "indulgences" in the Catholic tradition) or grudgingly (justifying net to hold on to as much as you can, or resenting paying on gross) as the case may be. 

[Still_Small_Voice]

Heavenly Father is very generous with us in my opinion.  I try to be generous with Him in return in my tithing and I like to try to give cheerfully.

[Anddenex]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

If you thought you were paying tithes but it actually ended up to be 20% of your increase you don't receive gross += blessing... you still get the blessing of an obedient tithe payer like everybody else.

If you thought you're going to pay 2 tithes to rig the system in your favor, kinda like investing 20% on your 401K instead of just 10% to get a higher company match... you get the same blessing as those who didn't pay tithes... because you didn't really pay tithes, you made a hopeful investment.

But, what do I know.  I'm just a random gal on the internet.

It appears you missed the satire in relation to the net or gross blessings statement in the OP.

[priesthoodpower]

There was a point in time when I didnt pay tithing for 4 yrs, not because I couldnt but because I was frustrated with life in general.

This was a time when I think I learned and grew the most, from a spiritual perspective you could say I was living the allegory Footprints in the Sand. The atonement became real to me and not just something I believed in, why? because I needed and wanted Christ even more in my life.

Financially I was very blessed, my business grew during this time but im humble enough to recognize that this was a result of the momentum built up during the previous 3yrs. Still though its not like God was going to punish me and make me homeless because I stopped tithes. One day I even fell 15ft off a roof backward, smacking my head on the concrete, got up and walked away without a scratch, truly a miracle and evidence that God was watching over me that day.

The title of this thread is everything that is wrong with religion.

 

[Fether]

29 minutes ago, priesthoodpower said:

There was a point in time when I didnt pay tithing for 4 yrs, not because I couldnt but because I was frustrated with life in general.

This was a time when I think I learned and grew the most, from a spiritual perspective you could say I was living the allegory Footprints in the Sand. The atonement became real to me and not just something I believed in, why? because I needed and wanted Christ even more in my life.

Financially I was very blessed, my business grew during this time but im humble enough to recognize that this was a result of the momentum built up during the previous 3yrs. Still though its not like God was going to punish me and make me homeless because I stopped tithes. One day I even fell 15ft off a roof backward, smacking my head on the concrete, got up and walked away without a scratch, truly a miracle and evidence that God was watching over me that day.

The title of this thread is everything that is wrong with religion.

 

I almost feel there is no correlation between obedience and blessings sometimes. It’s like if I’m sick with cancer and I am going be healed regardless of what I do.

if I am bitter and curse God, the healing will be a rebuke and a reminder that he still loves me despite my pride.

If I’m faithful, then the experience I have is a faith promoting experience.

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

It appears you missed the satire in relation to the net or gross blessings statement in the OP.

Didn’t miss it at all.  Just launched my “investment” comment off of it.