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Yesterday my son began to crawl under the chairs about 5 minutes in to the meeting and I could not get him out. I just had to wait for him to crawl back to me which was probably only a few minutes but it felt like a life time. I took him outside and after maybe 10 minutes I gave up and took him to the park. This Sunday was a failure but hopefully we can try again next week.

Certainly, I'd say those fit together. I just don't think that "success" (depending, I suppose, on what exactly you mean by success) necessarily is a reward from God, nor that failure (again, depending) is necessarily a punishment from God. And I think failure can be a gift / reward from God. Meanwhile, I have long thought that these verses in Alma: ...teach us that the act itself is the reward: if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward see that you are merciful unto your brethren ye shall have mercy restored unto you deal justly ye shall have justice restored unto you judge righteously ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you do good continually ye shall have good rewarded unto you again

Just out of curiosity...did anyone else not watch the Superbowl because...you know....it's on Sunday -- a holy day -- and the Superbowl is, you know, un-holy? Am I an anomaly in thinking the consumption of sports entertainment on the Sabbath is not in line with the Lord's purposes for the Sabbath?

http://thefederalist.com/2019/01/31/new-yorks-new-law-abortions-john-c-calhoun-moment/ It is remarkable that Northam finds his career threatened, not for openly supporting murder; but for having failed thirty years ago to be sufficiently apologetic for Calhoun’s legacy. If Trump were at all smart, he’d tweet something about the statistics of white abortions versus black abortions and then go quiet for a week or so. Jeremiah Wright said the right thing all those years ago; he was just saying it for the wrong reason. We have much to atone for . . .

It's one thing to have a child that crawls away and you have to go get him (or have others hand him to you, or wait for him to come back). That's pretty much everybody's experience, just a part of having children at Church. In my view, it's quite another thing to set your child on the floor and then smile while he runs up and down the aisle, in front of the speaker, etc. I was referring to the latter thing, not the former.

Yes, it is a reward. However, as previously explained, the issue isn't whether something is a reward or not, but rather whether the reward is the primary motivator or even a motivator at all. Christ is obedient not so as to receive joy, but regardless of the joy. He is obedient not because achieving the goal of salvation of mankind is a reward, but irrespective of it being a reward. Christ is obedient because he has an obedient and loving character . Christ does what he does because that is who and what he is--he is God, he IS love, even as his Father. As members progresses in character, and become more like Christ, at some point they stop being motivated by reward and punishment (earthly or otherwise), and start doing things out of obedience or ultimately because it is a part of their obedient and charitable character. For these elevated members, they pay tithes and offerings,not to avoid burning at the last days or to have the windows of heaven opened and an outpouring of blessings, or even to achieve exaltation, but because to not pay their tithes and offerings would violate their charitable nature.. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think this is important because just as there are many meanings for "salvation" there are many meanings for "reward." https://www.lds.org/topics/salvation?lang=eng I think "salvation" and "reward" match up. There are degrees of law and reward, and not everyone chooses to progress along the way, or all the way to exaltation. Some choose, one way or another, to stand still at one level of progression or another ("They have their reward.").

To me, it is mistaken to assume that the realization of rewards and punishments necessarily means that these consequences were the primary motivator, or a motivator at all, behind the actions resulting in the rewards or punishments. For example, members who have progressed far enough in their character development may be motivated, either by their obedient and/or charitable nature, to pay their tithes and offering regardless whether they are rewarded or not. The fact that their incomes may increase or they receive an unexpected check in the mail as a result of paying tithing, is, for them, beside the point. A scriptural example of this is Moses 5:4-12, particularly verse 6: "6 And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I known not, save the Lord commanded me." Adam was motivated by nothing other than obedience even though he was blessed thereby with the Holy Ghost (see verse 9) Another example is Christ's baptism. He didn't do it to receive the reward of a cleansed soul, because he was already clean. Rather, he did it out of obedience and to fulfill all righteousness. (see Mt 3:43--JST and 2Ne 31:5-7) Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I could not disagree with this more. This is what I was saying in my footnote. Sure, success looks to a mortal like a reward, and failure looks to a human like a punishment, but I am not convinced, on an individual level, that this is true - on a societal level, yes (Nephite promise), but not on an individual level. Consider this: Most people would not rejoice and be exceeding glad when they are reviled, persecuted, and falsely spoken evil against. Just think of the nightmare a powerful person could cause in the life of a humble soul simply by false accusation - the humble soul could lose their employment and savings, their home, could be sent to prison (or an arena full of hungry lions) - all because a powerful-enough person wanted it badly enough. Most going through such experiences might wonder what they had done to deserve such punishment, or why God hated them. Yet God says they should rejoice and be exceeding glad.

GO GO GO, NT!

Seventeen months is old enough to be purposefully defiant and naughty, but IMO it is too young to have any clear idea of doing something wrong. But it is appropriate to discipline a child who is purposefully misbehaving. That's what "discipline" means; to make him a disciple. You don't spank or slap a 17-month-old, of course; but you do correct his actions and not allow him to do the wrong thing. Time-outs should never be punitive; the goal is to allow the child (and his mama) to calm down so you can redirect his focus. You may scold him if he can be made to understand that he's being naughty, but your scolding should be gentle, not harsh. This is probably true at any age, but much moreso with very young children like this. Lots and lots of patience. That's what you (and he) need.

Abortion is wrong. I delivered my last 5 children at home. I have 11 children. We were told one of our babies had a pancreatic tumor. We were told one had a heart condition and likely had down syndrome. We just stopped all prenatal tests after our fourth. All of our children are healthy. And our first Ob/Gyn doc in Provo, asked if we wanted to give up our child for addoption. Our son was born in the coventant to a mother starting law school and a father just finishing undergrad and applying to medical school. (I almost punched him). As a doctor, I would warn everyone to not trust your doctors, and fire them if you dont like them. And seek a second opinion if you feel uneasy. The fact that we are now celebrating abortions with parties is what I now find disturbing.

It’s even more than that, I think. Legally, “agency” describes a relationship where an “agent” acts on behalf of the “principal”, who is bound by whatever choices the agent makes. Without that element of accountability for the agent’s actions, the relationship is not an agency relationship at all. Scripture clarifies that we are agents into ourselves. In this paradigm, then, you can destroy agency *either* by taking away the ability to make meaningful choices, *OR* by giving the actor consequences (either good or bad) that have no relation to his or her own actual deeds. I am inclined to think Lucifer’s original plan was more in-line with the second approach, because it so closely mirrors his minions’ arguments today—“whaddya mean, I gotta keep commandments? Whaddya mean, hell and damnation are real? A wuving god would never do THAT . . .”

We have a lot of non-LDS on the board lately and have had some really good discussions, so I thought I'd take advantage to ask a question thats been on my mind for a while. We LDS folk are really into praying to God for answers to questions. I ask God about faith, work, family etc. However, when I talk to a non-LDS person, praying to God for answers seems like a foreign idea. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, which probably means I'm misunderstanding something somewhere. So, non-LDS folks: why do you pray?

I was addressing multiple things, but let's just consider the statement you made to me. You said, "I dont think its possible to not keep the end goal in mind and that in and of itself is the primary motivating factor." Yesterday I paid my tithes and offerings online. When I did so, the thought never crossed my mind that I may be avoiding the punishment of burning at the last day. Nor, for that matter, did it cross my mind that the widows of heaven might be opened and I may receive the reward of blessings being poured out upon me--and this even though I have been gratefully blessed by doing so in the past, for I would do so even were that not the case. In fact, I would do so even if bad things were to happen to me and others as a result thereof. And, if you understood my situation you may realize this was a distinct possibility. Furthermore, the end goal of achieving exaltation didn't occur to me in the least--partly because, for reasons of my own, I am not consciously working towards that goal. Rather, the only thing that occurred to me was that it was Fast Sunday and that is when I pay my tithes and offerings. The payment has become, and was a course of habit and a function of who and what I now am. Nothing more or less than that. So, while it may be impossible for YOU to not keep the end goal in mind when obeying God's commands, it is not only possible or plausible, but a reality in my case, and this with God's help. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Christianity is based in a vicarious act, an act that was done for us with which we receive the full reward without having to reproduce the act ourselves. Yes, there is something that has to be done but we can be rewarded with something we did not do directly. The reward itself is that of having the ability to share glory. That means we get to share in the glory of something that we did not directly do, have all that God has. This is why loving our neighbor as self is a prerequisite to receiving such a shared glory. Is this not the story of the prodigal son? Even for the son that stayed. The desire we must have to receive a fullness of glory is that of wanting another's success and the desire to be one with the Lord and God.

Elder oaks takes my assertion one or two steps further in his first General Conference address as an Apostle (see in particular about half way through the talk, the paragraph starting with, "People serve one another for different reasons."): Why Do We Serve?: He distinguishes between those who are motivated by earthly rewards as contrasted with heavenly rewards, the former being bad and the latter good, and goes on to suggest that the latter is inferior to other reasons for serving. Profound stuff! Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Did you see the SuperBowl*? What a buncha bozos, huh? Yeesh! *Thanks @FunkyTown

I've never watched the Super Bowl, largely for this reason.

Things progressives have stated would be extremely unlikely: In the 60's - Divorce. In the 70's - Elective Abortion. In the 80's - Socialism. In the 90's - Gay marriage. Today - sex transition for children and legalization of pedophilia.

@zil Perhaps if I connected (coupled) rewards and blessings with "liberty" and "freedom" and coupled punishments and damnation (maledictions) with "bondage" and "slavery". The Traveler

UPDATE: So. . . The Lord works in mysterious ways; obviously! In December (2018) the house was finally ready. It was a long hard road with a lot of repairs and contractors having to fix things they screwed up. The tile in the Master Bathroom shower had to be re-done 4 times! Anyway, we had holiday plans, and we got a phone call late December to have us close before the end of the year. We explained our plans and that we had been waiting on their timeline for repairs to be complete and that we would not be able to close on the home until the first week of January. That wasn't okay for them, so they kept calling us almost daily to try and convince us to close before the end of the year. Eventually, to make it clear to them that it wasn't going to happen, I told the top guy I was working with that we could either close first thing in January, or they could terminate the contract and refund our earnest money. They called us back with their final offer and ultimatum: Close by the end of December and they would write us a check for $1500 as incentive; close in January and they would charge us a penalty for closing 'late'; terminate the contract and get 100% of our earnest money refunded. We knelt in prayer and afterwards felt confident that we should terminate the contract. My wife was crying; I was sad; we had invested so much time and effort into designing everything about the house, including how we would use it after moving in. Just before calling the guy back to cancel our contract, I decided to look on Zillow just to see if anything was on the market that would give me confidence that we could find a house at a price that would work well for our family. The very first house that popped up was $45,000 more expensive than the house we were building, but it was also 2x the finished square footage and still had unfinished area. It had 6 bedrooms and 4.5 bathrooms; the house we were building came with 4 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms, with the possibility of 1 additional bed and bath in the unfinished basement. I had seen the house on Zillow before when perusing, but dismissed it because it needed 'work' and was more expensive; this time, however, the Spirit prompted me that we needed to look at this house! I called my banker immediately to confirm we would qualify; he confirmed. I called our realtor immediately to schedule a viewing; she arranged it for early the next morning just before we were leaving town. Right after all this, I called back the construction company; they didn't answer; I left a message letting them know we would be exercising the option to cancel our contract and receive a reimbursement; I also sent an email to make sure they got the message. As expected, they were very upset. The next day came; we visited the home. The seller was having the walls painted; it just so happened to be the same color as we had chosen for the home we had been building! We weren't in love with the home, however, we could clearly see it was a functional fit for our family of 9. We got on the road and on the drive, we discussed; I was convinced and felt strongly that this was the house for us; my wife agreed, but was frustrated that while it was what we needed, it was not what she/we wanted. We prayed about it (while driving); the answer was essentially, 'Do I really have to spell it out for you?' We called our realtor and were ready to place an offer. The house was for sale by owner, so rather than writing up a contract immediately, our realtor reached out to the seller directly to get a feel for how much they would come down. Afterward, she called us back, and we discussed what we were prepared to offer. There was some back and forth with the seller, but finally we settled on a deal that was $4,000 below their initial asking price. Our realtor wrote up the contract; we signed it that evening so that she could get it to the seller as quickly as possible! The seller accepted and signed the contract that evening. We were ecstatic! Just 24 hours prior, we had no house to count on and were stuck in our small 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom home with 4 girls in one room and 3 boys in another! The Lord had put things in place to answer our prayers before we even said them! We had completed the offer contract process on Saturday evening. On Monday we got a call from our realtor; the seller received another offer for $15,000 above their asking price, which was $20K more than what we had offered! However, it was too late; the contract was legally binding, and the seller could not accept another offer unless we somehow chose to back out, or did not meet contractual deadlines. If we had not hearkened to the promptings of the Spirit and acted immediately, and in a way that some would judge to be rashly, we would have completely lost the opportunity to have this home! In the end the home appraised for $40,000 more than our purchase price! We closed on the home on the last Friday in January and spent the first night there this past Friday. Amazingly, the appliances we had purchased for the home we were building fit perfectly to replace the broken and missing appliances in the home we ended up in. None of this was coincidence; this was the hand of God acting directly in our lives! Hindsight is 20/20: Initially when I started this thread over a year ago, I wanted to know if anyone else had an experience where they felt impressed to go into debt for something that was needed, but was more want than need. Now that I have been through this process, I can see clearly how the Lord has blessed us through this process. Here are some of my takeaways: During the process of building our family grew from 7 to 9 (5 children to 7), our spacial needs increasing as a result. The house we ended up purchasing was $45,000 more than the maximum budget I had set for us when we initially started looking for a house and began the process of building. Going through the process of building a home made it very clear to us what we wanted and also what we needed. Through this journey our eyes were opened to the real dollar costs that go into building a home. At the end of the process, we were mentally and spiritually prepared to pay even more for the home than I initially would ever have been willing to pay. I would have completely passed on this house without a second glance because I would have considered it out of our price range. I learned so much about construction through the process of building (mostly because I had to research and point out all of their construction mistakes); it helped me know exactly what to look for in the home we bought. Because of the great deal of stress brought upon us through the process of building a home, the physiological symptoms led me and my doctor to the discovery of a hereditary, non-serious, medical condition that otherwise I may not have discovered for a long time, and which is now properly treated. This also led my younger sister to the same discovery and enabled her to receive treatment as well. We initially felt a strong impression that we needed to be in this specific area when beginning the process of building; this helped confirm our decision as the home we bought is nearby to the home we were building and is in the same ward. Interestingly, we actually have to drive by the house we were building to get to Church! There are many more things I could bring up and ultimately the Lord's plan is still in the works. We know we are exactly where he wants us to be, but we do not yet know what he wants us to do next. I am both excited and nervous to find out! At the end of the day, to answer my own question, like Zions Camp, the impressions that we received from the Lord that confused us early on have became clear. With few exceptions, no matter which options and upgrades we had ultimately selected on the house we were building, the home we ended up buying would have been more expensive, and a much better deal overall. Hence, we were inspired by the Lord to make choices that would seemingly put us in a great deal of debt, but which instead prepared us in many ways for the greater blessings he had prepared and lying in wait. Follow the Spirit, even if it seems foolish or like the wrong thing to do! God is the Gardener!

This is describes part of what I think the difference is between the called and the chosen. The called are instructed (in various ways, including the principles of reward and punishment), and when they follow (for example) the counsel D&C 121 by exercising their agency in word, deed, intent and desire, they become chosen. In the last day of judgement, "reward and punishment" is not an instructional tool but the fulfillment of the law in D&C 130:20-21 as administered by a loving God.

In computer programming, there's a concept called "coupling" which describes the relationship between separate components or modules of an application. Coupling can be "tight" - meaning that the separate modules are coded such that they depend on each other and if one changes, all those which reference it must also be changed; or coupling can be "loose" - meaning that they're designed such that they can be changed independently and still function together. I believe that among mortals, the coupling between behavior and consequence (reward/punishment) is tight - and that this is a good thing, because we're so flawed. Go to work and do your job? Get paid. Tight coupling. Fail to go to work and do your job? Get fired. Tight coupling. Our laws generally tightly couple the crime to the punishment - even if we think them unfair, they are still generally tightly coupled. I believe that to our flawed mortal minds, God's rewards and punishments are both misunderstood1 and appear to be loosely coupled. I think this is due to lack of understanding on our part, and I believe the rewards and punishments are probably tightly coupled from God's perspective. I also believe God's rewards and punishments are often less immediate than we mortals like. Nonetheless, when we look for them, we can see God's abundant blessings in our lives, and I have personally experienced their ebb and flow in consequence of my own behavior. (Thus, I think the "consequence" vs "reward/punishment" debate is only in semantics or perspective, and both perspectives can be useful in seeking understanding.) 1Meaning there are things we perceive as rewards or punishments which are either not rewards or punishments, or are the opposite of what we think - we perceive a punishment as a reward and vice versa. One may choose to call God's rewards and punishments "consequences" (and I believe they either always are or often are - I'm not certain which), but I don't believe that negates them coming from God - even if only because He's the one who defined the law and its consequence. Finally, I see many instances of reward and punishment in scripture, and many promises of reward and punishment: obey the Word of Wisdom and you will receive health and strength (obvious consequence) and revelation and other spiritual blessings (not quite so obvious a consequence); obey and prosper (the promise liberally repeated throughout scripture, but especially in the Old Testament and Book of Mormon); ripen in iniquity and be destroyed (ditto) - that these last two appear to be group-oriented rather than individual-oriented doesn't alter the reward/punishment nature of them.

Did you name it "Spot"? I had a dog named "cat" (in Russian - Koshka, long O, stress on the first syllable). Lab-border collie-something whippet-like mix. She was way too smart. Here's what she looked like when we brought her home: (This thread needed an animal photo.)

That's because you live in Patriots territory.

To those that might be lurking and reading this thread: "Some" of the comments are merely personal opinion and not taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. To those in this thread...if you are going to state something as opinion please say that it is your opinion only. Do not post it as if it is fact and true doctrine. Thank you.

Just a couple of quick thoughts Capital punishment, including by way of stoning, was NOT the exclusive domain of the Mosaic law. Many ancient cultures, including some that predate Moses by several centuries, instituted the practice for a variety of infractions. (see HERE and HERE). I mention this because it seems evident that, with few exceptions (perhaps those that Joseph F. Smith had in mind) that God's punishments seems to reflect that of the prevailing cultures, if not of somewhat less strident nature or applicable in fewer types of infractions. For example, prior to Moses the Babylonians instituted the death penalty for 25 different crimes (see HERE), whereas the Mosaic law covered half as many. (see HERE) In Athens during the Seventh Century B.C. all crimes were punishable by death. (see HERE) In fact, by the time of Christ, stoning among the Jews had grown increasingly out of favor (see HERE), and even so, with Jesus' response to the accused adulterer, it showed a greater leniency than that prevailing culture. Even today, there are cultures (predominately Islamic) that put people to death for a broad range of crimes, whereas the death penalty among predominately Christian nations is restricted to severe cases of murder, if that. The point being, that even if God had not instituted limited stoning under the Mosaic Law , people's probationary periods were being significantly cut short by death penalties in other cultures, which, if one assumes a just and merciful God, would mean the God has a way to compensate for that. Life expectancy post Moses was considerably lower than it is today. During the Roman Empire, life expectancy was around 25 years (see HERE), where as nowadays it is about 67.5 years (see HERE) This means that the probationary state back then was less than half of what it is today, irrespective of death penalties and the like. Here again, if one assumes a just God, then one may reasonably assume that God will account for the disparity. Finally, while life is a probationary state and the time for men to prepare to meet God, it isn't exclusively so. I believe there may be some space in the hereafter for people to be tested and to repent and prepare to meet God. And, perhaps it is that time where those who have received the death penalty for forgivable sins, or those with abbreviated mortal probation, will have the probationary scales of justice and mercy balanced. What I am suggesting is that even though it may seem that Mosaic death penalties conflict with life as a probationary state, God will assure that it all works mercifully and justly in the end. Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't recall much social justice talk, bit I was happy to see Gladys Knight sing the national anthem.

I feel to defend Rob -- at least a little bit. Considering how many mistakes that I think Joseph Fielding Smith made, I don't want to fault Rob for choosing to believe that Elder/President Smith made mistakes. I kind of see an irony -- since the things I think JFS got wrong (his young earth creationism) are things that Rob seems to think he got right. IMO, the hard part in this is not deciding if apostles and prophets can have made doctrinal mistakes. The hard part is deciding that they have made these kinds of doctrinal errors, but still retaining belief that they are prophets and apostles.

I'm reading a book called Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning. It's a nonfiction book that explains the psychology of how ordinary, regular guys gradually became Nazi killing machines in the "Final Solution" during WWII. It's... disconcerting. I just finished the third episode. I wonder about that too. He did describe himself as if he were giving way to an "other" that seemed to take over when he killed. So maybe? In the mid '70s, communication technology wasn't anywhere near what it is today. Imagine trying to build a puzzle with 100 pieces, but you only have 12, and the other 88 are scattered aronud 12 other homes in your neighborhood. I wonder about that too. Is it possible that they were prompted about him and didn't listen? How do you say "Gee, this guy wants to be baptized but... I just feel like he shouldn't be." Probably less than one might suppose. Porn is a thousand times easier to acquire today than it was in the '60s, and there's a million times more of it out there. If it were a major factor with Bundy, I'd expect there to be swarms of serial killers today. And illegitimate children are becoming the norm now. (Granted, without the social stigma there was once.) I wonder about that too, though I suspect that info isn't made public. I'd imagine that if they excommunicated him without a formal Disciplinary Council, they wouldn't exactly broadcast it. Maybe he was thinking ahead, and figured that knowledge would be useful later... I think there's value in such documentaries for those who are interested in it for reasons of historical or scientific interest.

For me, this is answered in D&C 130:20-21: 20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated 21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. As I see it, the notion of cause and effect in general, and in particular the precept that behaviors have consequences, permeates the operational structure of existence. Indeed, it is a critical element of he Plan of Progression. As such, if a parent (be it the Father or mortal custodians) desires that their children function effectively within existence, or in other words if they wish for their children to continue to progress, it behooves them to teach their children about cause and effect and behaviors having consequences One of the best practices for instructing in this regard is a system of rewards and punishment. Examples of this from the ultimate Teacher are replete throughout the scriptures. Having said this, experience suggests that at the upper end of character development, progress will diminish where rewards and punishment are the key motivators. What is needed to progress further is a sense of duty and responsibility and obedience irrespective of reward and punishment. And, to progress even further one needs to become charitable (i.e. like Christ), at times at the very expense of reward, or in other words by way of the law of sacrifice. So, while the Father uses rewards and punishment to assist His children to progress to a point, He offers other means of progression once they become a "man" or "woman." Tnanks, -Wade Englund-

As I recall, most of the youth in Germany were members of Hitler Youth. My mother-in-law was a Hitler Youth, and she hated the Nazis. The Nazis did some pretty horrible, unmentionable things to her family.

Ok, things are going well for me. Got my bad habits licked, my good habits are in full swing. All the psychological horribleness has retreated for the most part. It's less hard, more easy. The last time I weighed this little, was September 22. Twelve lbs down from when I started. My usual diet tells me the first 10 are easy, the next 10 takes longer but is doable. If I can lose 5-6 lbs in Feb, and do that again in Mar, I'll have reached my goal and can start plain old maintaining. Dilly Dilly!

I don't know enough about his life to comment one way or the other. I do know that the location of my ward building was picked 30+ years ago by a former member of the Hitler Youth who came to America and became branch president. The area originally covered by that branch is now 2 stakes and half a dozen wards.

Whether we like to admit it or not we must be motivated by outcomes in order to act. For instance- I go to work everyday and I'm motivated by several rewards. They are- finishing the project at hand, recognition by the customer and others for a job well done, money, being busy and staying productive, learning, serving others, health, etc, etc. There's also the flip side that motivates me if I don't do the work, they may be- not finishing the project, unhappy boss and customers, not getting paid or possibly fired, becoming lazy, bad health, not serving others, etc, etc. In my job we are always looking for ways to be motivated and productive. Rewards and punishments always come into play. It's not that we don't like to work it's just that we must use tools of rewards or punishment to keep things in order. We can't just say- "ahh, I'll get to that job one of these days, no big hurry, let's go fishing instead". No, there has to be goals and goals need to be looked at in the light of accomplishing a result. For God, his goal or reward is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. That's what motivates him, it is a reward to help others and bring about happiness. On the other hand, with Satan and others who follow him it's about being motivated by becoming more powerful and feared, being able to have more power over the hearts of others. The difference is however, there is no real reward for them, just greater depths of misery. But that's how evil is when it gets at that low level- they somehow glory in misery and making others miserable. It gets to a point where they truly can't see how to find joy anymore, everything they do just worsens things. But yet, they won't stop either because they love that dark power.

I was talking Legally (because we are talking Laws in this thread)... Legally no we do not... If we had the Legal Understanding of Human life that you gave here, Roe vs Wade would have never happened. This law from New York would have never had a chance. If we want a long term legal victory on this subject it must be on the basis that fetus are Human and therefore entitled to basic Human rights. Letting the argument be about choice and the mother's body is an argument we will never win.

Simple line is... is a fetus 'Human'? If the unborn is Human then we already have plenty of Law and Ethical standards, and Religious Guidance on when it might be acceptable to kill (The mother acting in Self Defense is right up there). If the unborn is not Human then it is property to be used or disposed of as the owner wishes. We also already have this covered in Laws, Ethics, and Religious Guidance. We do not have a clear understanding of when the unborn goes from a mass of cells (aka property) to a Human. And that is the problem. Sadly some of the greatest tragedies in our History come from people treating other people as property. Slavery, the Holocaust, etc are just a few. I know those that support elective abortion are on the wrong side of God, and I predict they will find themselves on the wrong side of History.

The problem there is the change from “Life at risk” to “Life and Health”. Health is a very broad term. Pre-partum depression, for example, is health. You can kill your baby if you’re suffering from pre-partum depression. Gestational diabetes is health. Heck, swollen feet is health. Do you see where this is going? The law changed so that a viable baby is only required to be saved AFTER live birth. So there’s no provision to prevent a viable baby to be killed prior to it passing the birth canal. The change comes with removal of the requirement that abortions after 24 weeks have to be performed in a hospital as an inpatient procedure. This removes the checks and balance of a hospital team setup. You can now get late-term abortions at Planned Parenthood. The change also removes the requirement for a 2nd attending physician. And to top it off, the procedure is covered full protection of medical privacy. It would be very naive for anybody to think these changes secure that abortions only occur to remove non-viable fetus or to save a mother’s life.

Joseph Fielding Smith and Brigham Young. In one of JFS's "Answers to Gospel Questions" chapters, which was used back in 1973 as the priesthood study manual, he indicated that immortal beings didn't have blood, but when the immortal Adam fell and became mortal, blood came into his veins for the first time. I was on my mission in Germany at the time, and when this came up, it caused a recent convert 's eyes to bulge and jaw to drop. It was the last we saw of him. At least for a while. It really thrrew him for a loop. You haven't noticed that whenever Heavenly Father is spoken of, it is never as having a body of "flesh and blood" but one of "flesh and bone"? And then we have this, from chapter 37 of Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, speaking of Christ: The blood he spilled upon Mount Calvary he did not receive again into his veins. That was poured out, and when he was resurrected, another element took the place of the blood. It will be so with every person who receives a resurrection; the blood will not be resurrected with the body, being designed only to sustain the life of the present organization. When that is dissolved, and we again obtain our bodies by the power of the resurrection, that which we now call the life of the body, and which is formed from the food we eat and the water we drink will be supplanted by another element; for flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God [see 1 Corinthians 15:50] (DBY, 374). I Cor 15:50: "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

The atonement can pay for sins 100%, but the kingdom one inherits is not merely based upon having one's sins paid for.

Oh crap - I need a new avatar! (Other than that, I agree.)

Yes, I do. I'm the father of five, and so have had five very intimate chances to experience what you're dealing with. Here are a few tips and things to remember: Just go to Church. Even if you spend the entire time sitting in the hall, go anyway. You can enjoy the Spirit and maybe chat with some fellow Saints, and at least for the sacrament meeting, you can still partake of the sacrament and listen to the speakers even in the foyer. Stay for both hours. Within a month, your baby can go into the nursery, and you'll be able to attend gospel doctrine and Relief Society. This will not last forever. It's actually a very short time, even if it seems like forever. Children grow up very fast. Two years might sound like a long time, but trust me, it is not. Two years from now, your baby won't be a baby any more, and you and he (and who knows, maybe your husband) will be regular and welcome faces in your ward. Go for that picture and make it a reality. You have lots and lots and lots of company. You're treading the same path that countless others have walked before you, including many in your ward. The only people who might not be understanding are those who haven't yet gone down that path, and in the Church, that's not many people. (And most of the childless are sympathetic to the plight of parents of young children, too, so odds are few if any will be anything other than sympathetic and helpful.) As for how to handle a toddler at that age in a sacrament meeting, let me offer you some insights into what worked for me during the sixteen or so years that I dealt with very young children at Church. Do not expect to be able to hear most of the talks. Just accept that for the next year or so, you won't be hearing much. If you do, BONUS! But have the expectation that you're going to Church and, while there, deal as best you can with your baby, because that's the most likely reality. Do it anyway. Infants and most very small children (about 18 months and younger) cannot really be disciplined, so don't try. Your job is to keep them as happy and comfortable as possible. Distraction often works very well for such children. More on that below. Now, the children will adapt to conditions they're exposed to, so by going the sacrament meeting you're helping them to set their own expectations. If you never go to sacrament meeting, they will never understand that it's a normal environment and get comfortable with it. If your child is mildly fussy, distract him with a soft, quiet toy like a teddy bear or a teething ring. As long as he's not screaming or being very loud, try to stay in sacrament meeting and teach him to be content. If your child is screaming or very loud, take him out to the foyer in consideration of others in the meeting. Sure, it seems unfair that you have to miss the meeting. Welcome to parenthood. We make all sorts of sacrifices for our children and for our neighbors who would otherwise be inconvenienced by our children. This, too, shall pass, and all too quickly (see "This will not last forever" above). NEVER, EVER, EVER LET YOUR CHILD RUN UP AND DOWN THE AISLES DURING SACRAMENT MEETING. Sorry if this seems stupidly obvious, but judging by the number of times I have seen this in Church, apparently it's not as obvious as all that to some people. If you do see other parents allowing their children to do this, please understand that that is an example of poor decision-making by the parents, not a signal that you should do the same. Be the responsible parent, not the other kind. I have noticed during my (extensive) time sitting in the foyer that many people don't "do" the foyer right with their children. When they go into the foyer, they drop their kid and let him run around while they (the parents) chat with each other. DON'T DO THIS. If you do, you are teaching your child that if he fusses and screams, he gets to go out and run around. What small child wouldn't want that? OF COURSE he's going to scream! He gets to run around if he does! Here is the key to proper foyer etiquette with your child, based on long experience. This is so important that I'll give it its own heading: HOW TO TAKE YOUR CHILD OUT INTO THE FOYER DURING SACRAMENT MEETING When you take the child (toddler, say about two years old or more—remember, younger children just get held, fed, and comforted) into the foyer, it's a classic time-out situation. You sit the child on your lap while you both sit facing the corner or wall. If the child wants to get up, you don't let him. Sitting in the foyer is just that: Sitting. Do not be harsh or angry. You aren't mad at your child. Just make sure the foyer is as boring as you can possibly make it. No toys. No food. No books. NO TALKING AT ALL (that includes you, Mom). All you do is sit with your arms folded and stare at the wall. If your child gets restless, he's not allowed to do anything about it. Just stare at the wall. Boooooooring. That's what you want. Boring as all get-out. Staring at the wall. Nothing to do, can't talk, no playing or reading or anything. Staring at the wall. After your child has successfully stared QUIETLY at the wall for a sufficient time (about one minute per year of age, so a two-year-old would be looking at the wall for about two minutes—maybe half that time would be sufficient to start out with), you then quietly and kindly ask your child if he wants to go back in. Maybe one time in a hundred he will say "No!", in which case you stare at the wall some more for a couple of minutes. Eventually (almost always the first time, and never more than the second time for my children), when you ask if he wants to go back in, he will say "yes". You then remind him that when we're in sacrament meeting, we have to be quiet and reverent all the time. That means he can't talk out loud or make noise or scream. He can read his soft book or play with toys or whatever, but no noise. Will he be quiet when we go back in the chapel? Of course, he will say yes. So back in you go. And guess what happens? He gets loud again, sometimes 20 minutes later, sometimes two minutes later. What do you do? Take him out into the foyer again, rinse, and repeat. Same drill. Stare at the wall. I don't think that even the most recalcitrant of my children took more than two or three weeks of this before they realized that they were much better off being quiet during the sacrament meeting. Of course, they slipped up and occasionally still had to be taken out, but it was manageable. A fond if somewhat embarrassing memory is my taking my toddler daughter out into the foyer when she wouldn't calm down, and as we walked up the aisle with her in my arms, her screaming at the top of her lungs in a tearful and almost panicked voice, "NO!! DADDY!! NOT THE FOYER!! I DON'T WANT TO GO TO THE FOYER!!"

Heh, instead of covering I'd just say "Ask him." But that's just me. Put me in an awkward spot? There will be consequences. 😎

There are as many different ways and forms to pray, as there are people. Prayer is a way of conversing with our Father, doing our best to grow closer to Him and accept and live out His Divine Will in our lives. I pray through action, by offering up every day and chores (this is where it varies from person to person, we are called to fulfill different roles). This type of prayer glorifies Him, since I am joyfully doing what He has made me to do. I also pray through meditation (rosary, which is a long prayer meditating on life, death, and Resurrection of Jesus. This is only one example of meditative prayer), and contemplation (when I read the Bible or other theology books). The Mass is a prayer of worship, which I do every Sunday, and can also participate in daily by going to daily Mass if I'm able. I also pray asking for guidance in His Will, and He has answered me in some truly remarkable ways :) So, yes, I also pray for answers!

In my mind, the primary purpose of prayer is worship, to try to grow closer to God. That being said, I do sometimes come to God with particular problems. In those cases, though, I don't tend to expect an overt response. God is the author of all that is good. When good things happen in my life, I have to acknowledge that God is their source. When I bring those particular concerns to him, I believe that he will either grant them or He will not. If He grants them, I believe he either does so through the thoughts and actions of others or of myself. If He does not grant them, well, then He sees a bigger picture than I do and I'm sure He has a good reason. I think the best reason to pray is precisely for those times when He doesn't give you what you want. It's easy to be a good Christian when everything is going great, it's harder when the road gets tough. It's best in my mind to grow closer to him while things are going well so that you have a stronger foundation to start on when things start to go wrong. -Claire

I was raised Catholic and I prayed then the same as I pray now as LDS. Any of the rote prayers were used in guiding meditation. My father taught me to meditate the seven mysteries of Christ ("The Sorrowful Mysteries")as I prayed the rote prayers of the Rosary. They guided my thoughts toward Christ in a way my praying now finds lacking. Nonetheless, I was raised to pray personal prayers that included being thankful and asking for blessing, just as I do now. I just don't do the sign of the cross before and after...although I wouldn't find it offensive to do so.

Christ Himself said Judas would be a son of perdition and several scriptures say he was a devil. When you go outside of canon, some conjecture on his fate. But the scriptures are very clear as to his fate. John 17:12--While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Acts 1:25--That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. Mat. 26:24-- The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Peter, in quoting Psalms, Acts 1:20--For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. John 6:70--Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? Judas is listed beside the non-believeers in John 6:64-- "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. " “a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein” (John 12:6) “I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood” (Matt. 27:3–4) Luke 22:3-4 “Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.” In addition, some past Prophets have taught “No person was foreordained or appointed to sin or to perform a mission of evil. No person is ever predestined to salvation or damnation. . . . Judas had his agency and acted upon it; no pressure was brought to bear on him to cause him to betray the Lord, but he was led by Lucifer.” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954), 1:61. “All those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—They are they who are the sons of perdition” (D&C 76:31–32). “What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. . . . You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance; they make open war, like the devil, and awful is the consequence.” Teachings of the Prophet, 358;