mikbone

What if the USA's position on polygamy changed?

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The government does not hold the keys to authorizing Polygamy.   As such Jacob's instructions on the subject would remain in force for the Faithful.

Now if you are asking if God would authorize his key holders to turn that key...  That is speculation that tell more about the person speculating then it does anything else.

 

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Just now, estradling75 said:

That is speculation that tell more about the person speculating then it does anything else.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain?

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1 minute ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain?

God will do what God will do...

But what we think God will do...  Is by its very nature about us, how we think, how we feel, what we think is important.  Thus we end up shining the light on ourselves

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3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

God will do what God will do...

But what we think God will do...  Is by its very nature about us, how we think, how we feel, what we think is important.  Thus we end up shining the light on ourselves

Okay...nitpicking you to death for no reason other than I thought of it....but.......

You said that if someone speculates it tells something about them. But does it? If one person speculates that polygamy would return in the church and another speculates that it won't do I really understand anything about said person? Does it actually tell me much of anything other than that exact thing?

Maybe I'm misreading you. I expect I am. But that's what had me wondering. 20 years ago I'd say that polygamy probably would return someday. 20 years later I'd probably say the same thing. But the why of my saying that is very, very, very different. And others would be as likely to assume that my reasoning was what it was 20 years ago as they would be to assume it is what it is today. Or...more likely....assume something else entirely.

Anyhow, not trying to debate. Just...like I said... I thought the thought, so I said it. :)

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5 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Okay...nitpicking you to death for no reason other than I thought of it....but.......

You said that if someone speculates it tells something about them. But does it? If one person speculates that polygamy would return in the church and another speculates that it won't do I really understand anything about said person? Does it actually tell me much of anything other than that exact thing?

Maybe I'm misreading you. I expect I am. But that's what had me wondering. 20 years ago I'd say that polygamy probably would return someday. 20 years later I'd probably say the same thing. But the why of my saying that is very, very, very different. And others would be as likely to assume that my reasoning was what it was 20 years ago as they would be to assume it is what it is today. Or...more likely....assume something else entirely.

Anyhow, not trying to debate. Just...like I said... I thought the thought, so I said it. :)

So... you are bored  :D

It was a comparison...  Knowing the Mind of God vs Knowing the Mind of a Poster.

What is speculation (which I am totally guilty of) most likely to reveal something of?    The Mind of the Poster.  In fact it is very unlikely that this thread will reveal anything new about the mind of God to most posters here...

 

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That would be a travesty, as it would not be done after the manner of God. It would be abused greatly, and our younger generations would see much more filth and be exposed to much more dysfunction than they are today.

As for the church, I doubt anything would change. Although the people of God have practiced the principle of plural marriage (more properly named plural families) over thousands of years, it was always for a wise and specific purpose. Plural marriage is not a requirement. The standard is 1 man and 1 woman, and I highly doubt the Lord would just allow anyone in His church to marry multuple persons without need or authorization.

Hypothetically, if it was reinstituted in the church, that would be a great blessing for a few, and a great test of faith for many.

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8 minutes ago, scottyg said:

Hypothetically, if it [plural marriage were] reinstituted in the church, that would be a great blessing for a few, and a great test of faith for many.

Clarification: It would be a great blessing for all who obeyed and were faithful, and would be a great test of faith to most or all the Saints.

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7 minutes ago, scottyg said:

if it was reinstituted in the church, that would be a great blessing for a few everyone, and a great test of faith for many everyone.

Fixed it. ;)

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Well, according to scripture polygamy just might be necessary one day as men become scarce ..,

Isaiah 13

9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

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4 hours ago, Vort said:

Clarification: It would be a great blessing for all who obeyed and were faithful, and would be a great test of faith to most or all the Saints.

 

4 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Fixed it. ;)

I said it that way because not everyone would be asked to participate...very likey a smell few. And of course some would be expected to fail. All those who were not asked, but kept their faith in the church nonetheless, would also be blessed.

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Even if it were decriminalized in the US, it would likely remain illegal in the vast majority of nations in which the Church operates.

As far as the Church goes—the Lord will ordain whatever He ordains; but demographically, neither we nor any population I know of could sustain polygamy long-term—at a certain point you wind up with a bunch of extra men who just don’t have anyone to marry.  IIRC the only reason territorial Utah got away with the practice for as long as it did, was that female converts tended to significantly outnumber the males through the late 19th century.  (Note that Utah itself was fairly demographically balanced; but the non-LDS element in the territory skewed heavily male—mostly soldiers and miners—while the Church membership skewed female.  So even though there was a nominal gender balance, from an LDS girl’s perspective a lot of the available single men just weren’t “marriageable”.)

If the Church resumed the practice today I imagine it would probably be pretty tightly restricted to a statistically infinitesimal proportion of Church members.  

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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14 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

at a certain point you wind up with a bunch of extra men who just don’t have anyone to marry.

As opposed to now, where there are a bunch of extra women who just don't have anyone to marry.

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/gender-distribution-of-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-worldwide/

Quote

The total Church membership consisted of 90 males for every 100 females in 2011. By contrast, in the entire world’s population, there were 101 males for every 100 females. Only in Africa did the ratio of males to females in the Church exceed 1 (118 males for every 100 females). 

 

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9 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

As opposed to now, where there are a bunch of extra women who just don't have anyone to marry.

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/gender-distribution-of-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-worldwide/

 

And yet . . . would they find polygamy preferable to solitude?

I keep having visions of the Church permitting polygamy and “single adult” activities becoming kind of like an informational seminar for a nudist colony*—full of a bunch of creepy middle-aged schlubs, milling about and asking each other where all the hot chicks are . . .
 

*So I’ve heard . . .

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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7 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And yet . . . would they find polygamy preferable to solitude?

When it comes to polygamy, every firsthand account I've read, all say it's not about what the humans involved found preferable, but what God finds preferable. 

 

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On 8/26/2021 at 8:07 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

And yet . . . would they find polygamy preferable to solitude?

I keep having visions of the Church permitting polygamy and “single adult” activities becoming kind of like an informational seminar for a nudist colony*—full of a bunch of creepy middle-aged schlubs, milling about and asking each other where all the hot chicks are . . .
 

*So I’ve heard . . .

That's a good point.  Historically, it would mean that a few high value men (The super-wealthy, the highly respected) would have multiple women chasing them, while low value men (The poor, unattractive) would be more likely to lose out. 

 

I'm a stats guy, so I look at historical figures:  https://genealogy.stackexchange.com/questions/9839/do-we-have-more-female-than-male-ancestors#:~:text="Citing recent DNA research%2C Dr,40 percent of men did."

Twice as many women as men have contributed to the gene pool. Most likely, the majority of those men who did had a single wife. The few: The David's, the Solomon's, etc. - The wealthy and the powerful - Had more than 2, or 3, or even 4. 

Partly, this is due to women's tendency towards hypergamy, which is the practice of marrying up: Women tend to marry men who earn more than them, are more powerful than them, etc.  This has also borne fruit in the modern age, with men being far more likely to be abstinent than women: 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/29/share-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/

 

From the data, we see that 28% of men between the ages of 18-30 are not having sex. Compare this to 18 % of women.

 

There are some thoughts on why: Maybe there are far more lesbian women than gay males - That isn't true:

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/sexuality/bulletins/sexualidentityuk/2017

 

There are more gay males than women who identify.

 

The obvious answer is that fewer men are having more sex. The upside of this is that women are finding the men they do want to be less likely to commit as the men have more options. Men are removing themselves from the dating pool as they feel they have no chance.

 

So would they be happy with it? Statistically speaking, we're in a situation where women are choosing men who are higher value and have more partners already.

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WOKESTER: Having two moms is great! Two mothers can do exactly as good a job, OR BETTER, than a mother and a father! Anyone who says otherwise is a hater and a bigot!

ME: Okay, so...how about two moms and a dad?

WOKESTER: NOOOO!!!! How perverted! That would mess up the children sooooooo badly!

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2 minutes ago, Vort said:

WOKESTER: Having two moms is great! Two mothers can do exactly as good a job, OR BETTER, than a mother and a father! Anyone who says otherwise is a hater and a bigot!

ME: Okay, so...how about two moms and a dad?

WOKESTER: NOOOO!!!! How perverted! That would mess up the children sooooooo badly!

That'll last until MSNBC tells them that it's liberating.

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2 hours ago, FunkyTown said:

That's a good point.  Historically, it would mean that a few high value men (The super-wealthy, the highly respected) would have multiple women chasing them, while low value men (The poor, unattractive) would be more likely to lose out. 

There is a lot going on in today's society that needs to be examined more closely. 

For example, many men have decided, for one reason or another, that their collection of anime girl statues is better company that any real woman could ever be. While some of these individuals are legitimately unwell in the sense of losing touch with reality, others have had such negative experiences with women - or known so many men who have - that they literally do not trust any flesh and blood woman to have their best interests at heart. These people have functionally removed themselves from the gene pool, let alone the dating pool, and so even if they're otherwise "high value" they won't be contributing unless they can be convinced to give it a go, that there's a woman out there who loves him for him. 

Additionally, a knock-on effect of the rise of "girl power" is that "women stringing along multiple men" has become a sign of how "powerful" a woman is. There are women who actually make their money selling home-made pornographic photos and videos of themselves through social media or otherwise engaging in "adult" activities for profit, often never even interacting face-to-face with the people they get their money from. While it's often joked that many of these women are doing it "because their family needs the money" [1], the simple fact is that one woman can easily get a large number of men so caught up in her that they don't consider other women.

Just these two trends alone are enough that many men, particularly younger men, are no longer involved in the dating scene, let alone having children. 

The overall coarsening of the culture and the destruction of the nuclear family is also producing situations where men who would have been regarded as perfectly acceptable spouses in years past are now being overlooked as "inadequate" in some fashion, such as not making "enough" money or not being attractive "enough". The women making these judgments regard themselves as entitled to someone or something far better, and refuse to consider anyone who falls below their standards. [2]

We also now have situations where men and women alike are going "Why get married when I can spend all of my time and attention on myself?". This is especially problematic in countries like Japan and China where the birth rates are plummeting so low that the governments are having to offer financial incentives for people to marry and have children. 

 

 

[1] One example is a bit that was recently posted anonymously to the internet. The person claimed to be a 15-year-old boy, and that they were seeking advice. Allegedly, their 21-year-old sister began selling photos of herself online to help the family make ends meet, and the poster is claiming that they are now being bullied at school because their classmates found out; a few classmates have even claimed to have gotten their hands on the photos and keep offering to show them to the poster. While many people on the forum where it was posted doubted whether this was legitimate, others expressed horror at the person's plight. 

[2] One example from about a decade or so back involved a woman posted a teary-eyed rant on a major city's local social media forum. She was going on about how attractive she was and how, as a result, she figured that she'd be able to just move to the city and get a millionaire falling all over her. Instead, she's been in town six months and nada; this led her to question if she was unattractive after all or if she simply wasn't going to the right places to meet millionaires. 

In response, someone posted a rather long take-down noting that if *all* she brought to the relationship was her physical appearance, then she'd be thrown to the curb anyway once her looks reached a point where even cosmetic surgery couldn't save her. Instead, any sensible man - especially one with that much money - would be looking out for a woman who he could see a long-term relationship with. Until such time as she worked on herself as a person, she would always be a money-losing investment. 

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I seem to have this vague recollection that in some cultures the church is already dealing with, and perhaps even accepting of, polygamy. It may be that in parts of the southern Philippines, where Islam is still strong, and where people are allowed to have up to 4 wives, some such people are desirous of joining the church, and then it becomes a question of what to do with their additional wives. I think that similar considerations may apply in some parts of northern Africa. I suspect that in such situations, where a man who is legally married to more than one wife wants to join the church, the only options the church would have would be to accept his polygamous wives or require that he divorce some of them or not allow him to be baptised. 

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10 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I seem to have this vague recollection that in some cultures the church is already dealing with, and perhaps even accepting of, polygamy.

My completely non-authoritative opinion is: No way.

11 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I think that similar considerations may apply in some parts of northern Africa. I suspect that in such situations, where a man who is legally married to more than one wife wants to join the church, the only options the church would have would be to accept his polygamous wives or require that he divorce some of them or not allow him to be baptised

I expect the bolded are the only acceptable alternatives. Given the Restored Church's abhorrence of divorce, I wonder if such people are simply told they can't be baptized. I assume that the wife of a polygamist is not eligible for baptism, as well as her husband and his other wives, even though she is not technically the polygamist.

Which brings another question to mind. If a woman wants to join the Church but her husband takes a second wife (against her wishes), would she be allowed to be baptized? If she is a member of the Church when her non-LDS husband takes another wife, will she be in something less than good standing with the Church until and unless she divorces her husband or he divorces his other wife/wives?

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

My completely non-authoritative opinion is: No way.

I expect the bolded are the only acceptable alternatives. Given the Restored Church's abhorrence of divorce, I wonder if such people are simply told they can't be baptized. I assume that the wife of a polygamist is not eligible for baptism, as well as her husband and his other wives, even though she is not technically the polygamist.

Which brings another question to mind. If a woman wants to join the Church but her husband takes a second wife (against her wishes), would she be allowed to be baptized? If she is a member of the Church when her non-LDS husband takes another wife, will she be in something less than good standing with the Church until and unless she divorces her husband or he divorces his other wife/wives?

That would be my answer as well. How could they get baptized? 

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