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  1. Moses 1:39 Satan had the same last 2 questions that you pose. His solution didn't work though...
    3 points
  2. “The hub formerly known as Mormon”, expressed in written form by some character from the Deseret Alphabet?
    3 points
  3. Lost Boy

    Apostle’s wives

    I was going to mention that as well. I know it is a story of the relationship between the lord and Israel, but I really think that modern day could use it as well. How many wives have divorced a husband for looking at porn? How many couples have split up due to infidelity? The lord forgave Israel whenever they came back, but we as modern people have a huge issue with forgiveness. I could have divorced my wife for what she did, but I am truly grateful that I took a different path. I almost feel like a newlywed right now. Forgiveness is a powerful concept. In the case of the op's question, forgiveness shouldn't play a role in deciding to marry a divorced woman, but it is similar in that you are not holding someone's past against them. The lord loves us regardless.... Why should we be any different with those we decide to marry?
    3 points
  4. I agree, and yet struggle with this. Quite frankly, an atheist often has a better chance of conversion than a nominal Christian. The atheist is under no delusion. They know they are apart from, opposed to, or simply out of God's realm. Sadly, the spiritual person, the believer in a Higher Power, the "I believe in Jesus, but don't stress about it" person, the inactive member, the Christmas Easter Only (CEO) Christian, etc. etc. actually believes they are good enough--that God will take them in. If the church's teaching about 3 heavens is true, that may be right. However, from my binary perspective (heaven vs. hell), the half-hearted soul is the primary candidate to hear, on the day of judgment, "Depart from me, for I never knew you." So...especially to young people,...my counsel would be run, do not walk, away from romantic relationship with those that are under-devoted. You cannot woo them, nurse them, even love them into the Kingdom. Let Heavenly Father do His work in their lives. Romantic love must never overwhelm the love and devotion we have for the one true and living God. -- Okay, PC is done preaching.
    3 points
  5. I agree with JAG. If Kavanaugh really did do this thing, then he should not be within a mile of a judicial post of any sort, much less a Supreme Court appointment. That said, I have zero reason to believe his accuser. And do you know what would be ten times worse than appointing a former juvenile delinquent to the SC? Allowing any random, unsubstantiated accusation to destroy a man's reputation and a judicial appointment. The former would put a potentially bad man in a position of influence, something regrettable but probably survivable. Not like it has never happened before. The latter would destroy our society.
    2 points
  6. The following presumes Kavanaugh actually did what he is actually accused of doing, which is by no means certain. — No. NO. Nopity-nopity-nope. This is not teenaged stupidness. This is an attempt to get a young woman away from any possible defenders, overpower her, silence her calls for help, and forcibly disrobe her; very probably in preparation for rape. This is not normal teenaged boy behavior. It is not even typical teenaged-boy-level stupid behavior. Believe it or not, I was once a teenaged boy. And somehow—mirabile dictu!—I made it all the way through high school (and college!) without ever doing that to a girl. Now, I work in the juvenile court system; and I understand and generally agree with the rationale that youthful indiscretions—even grievous ones—should not subject a youth to the adult penal system; and that on attaining majority delinquents should be given a chance for a new start in life via a sealed juvenile record. But that doesn’t mean prefer them in a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Freaking Court over the plenty of other excellent candidates who have never—either as an adult or a juvenile—exhibited the level of malice, brutality, and sheer sociopathy that it takes to engage in the sort of conduct being alleged here. I was listening to several other conservative-leaning commentators discussing this today, and the not-quite-universal consensus was that this is run-of-the-male teenaged boy boorishness that ought to get a pass. The ease with which this position was acknowledged and accepted frankly horrified me, and elicits two gut reactions: 1) Maybe the #metoo moonbats were right all along; and 2) Behold what Trump and his siren song of “locker room talk” hath wrought on the GOP.
    2 points
  7. Vort

    What to do about Pronouns

    No, you are not wrong. But when in Portland, do as the snowflakes do. Wait, no. Don't do as they do. But at least speak as the snowflakes speak. Wait, no. Don't do that, either. But when the guy who likes to wear a dress and makeup tells you he wants to be addressed as "she", go ahead and humor him. And don't feel bad if you forget sometimes. And don't be too lavish in your apologies if (when) you do.
    2 points
  8. Why do any parents let their children learn through failure? What do we get out of raising our own children? It's interesting that you post this because it seems so obvious to me, yet I'm not sure how to articulate it. I'll give it some thought and hope one of the smart people come along and do it for me.
    2 points
  9. Okay, I have all the Canon Law on it with all the changes encapsulated in one document in English with the supporting documents (policies written for the law for its execution). But as I'm reading it with the perspective of a non-Catholic, it is confusing (except maybe for @Just_A_Guy who is well-versed not only in legalese but also in Latin which Canon Law is written as). So, I'm going to start with this simple summary and then edit this post to link all the details if you want to get the fuller (but a lot more complicated reading) picture. This is the Policy FAQ derived from Canon Law issued by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops (policies only applying to the US): http://www.usccb.org/upload/FAQs-canonical-process-sexual-abuse.pdf Excerpt: What does canon law now require a bishop to do when he receives an allegation of sexual abuse of a minor committed by a cleric (priest or deacon)? A: The Code of Canon Law stipulates that the first steps after receipt of an allegation of the commission of an ecclesiastical crime are usually taken by the local bishop. If the priest against whom an allegation is brought is a member of a religious order, his superior might take the first steps instead. Any allegation that has the semblance of truth (it is not manifestly false or frivolous) undergoes what is referred to as a preliminary investigation. During the preliminary investigation, the accused enjoys the presumption of innocence and his good name must not be illegitimately harmed. According to the Essential Norms, which constitute law on sexual abuse of minors for the dioceses of the United States, the investigation should be conducted promptly and objectively. The Essential Norms also require the bishop to follow all civil reporting laws when the allegation concerns the sexual abuse of minors. Church officials are also to cooperate with civil authorities in their own investigations. Moreover, the bishop exercises his power of governance in other ways to make sure no harm comes to children during the phase of the preliminary investigation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you want to dig deeper into Canon Law, here it is. It's, for sure, not for the casual inquirer. Edit #1: Canon Law Summary of Changes that covers pedophilia by priests: http://www.vatican.va/resources/resources_introd-storica_en.html Relevant Excerpts: Delicts against morality: 1. The violation of the sixth commandment of the Decalogue, committed by a cleric with a minor under the age of 18. The procedural norms to be followed in these cases were as follows: Whenever an Ordinary or Hierarch had at least probable knowledge (notitiam saltem verisimilem habeat) of the commission of one of the reserved grave delicts, after having carried out the preliminary investigation, he was to inform the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith which, unless it called the case to itself because of special circumstances, would indicate to the Ordinary or Hierarch how to proceed. The right of appeal against a sentence of the first instance was to be exercised only before the Supreme Tribunal of the Congregation. Criminal action in the cases reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was extinguished by a prescription of ten years. It was also foreseen that prescription would be computed according to the norms of CIC can. 1362 § 2 and CCEO can. 1152 § 3, with the singular exception of the delict contra sextum cum minore, in which case prescription would begin to run from the day when the minor had completed his eighteenth year of age. In tribunals established by Ordinaries of Hierarchs, for the cases of the more grave delicts reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative could be validly performed only by priests. Furthermore, upon completion of the trial in the tribunal in any manner, the acts of the case were to be transmitted ex officio, as soon as possible, to the Congregation. Edit #2: Sacramentum Sanctitatis Tutela https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_20020110_sacramentorum-sanctitatis-tutela.html Relevant Excerpts: ... we expressly established, “[The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith] examines delicts against the faith and more grave delicts whether against morals or committed in the celebration of the sacraments, which have been referred to it and, whenever necessary, proceeds to declare or impose canonical sanctions according to the norm of both common or proper law,”4 thereby further confirming and determining the judicial competence of the same Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith as an Apostolic Tribunal. Edit #3: In case you are wondering what is this Doctrine of Faith??? This is basically the FBI/DOJ of Canon Law. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/index.htm Edit #4: The US Conference of Catholic Bishop's policies in the application of Canon Law in the US relevant to pedophile priests: I suggest you read this in its entirety: http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/Charter-for-the-Protection-of-Children-and-Young-People-revised-2011.pdf Excerpt: ARTICLE 4. Dioceses/eparchies are to report an allegation of sexual abuse of a person who is a minor to the public authorities. Dioceses/eparchies are to comply with all applicable civil laws with respect to the reporting of allegations of sexual abuse of minors to civil authorities and cooperate in their investigation in accord with the law of the jurisdiction in question. Dioceses/eparchies are to cooperate with public authorities about reporting cases even when the person is no longer a minor. In every instance, dioceses/eparchies are to advise victims of their right to make a report to public authorities and support this right.
    2 points
  10. 2 points
  11. Historically this has not been the case... But Cannon Law has changed in recently to do this. Imagine if you will the Vatican as an Independent Nation State, its churches as embassies, and it priest as diplomats with diplomatic immunity. (it is not the case but that is the kind of behavior we have been looking at historically) When your diplomat breaks the law of the country they are in... you do not want them subject to local laws... you want them sent home so you can deal with it/them according to your laws. Historically the Catholic Church has had the power to do this. But they do not any more, and it took a bit to adapt to the change (which it has by changing the Cannon Law) Like on every police drama ever when you are dealing with 'diplomats' who are corrupt things do not always go the way you want them to when trying to bring them to justice
    2 points
  12. I am very open to helping those with mental issues - I am not sure that help looks like - the idea that warm fuzzes is always more helpful than tough love and straight talk seems strange to me. To be honest I do not think there is a single category for a helpful attitude. I know I am not much help and am very conflicted - mostly I step away and support anyone that has patients. Back in the day when there were mental institutions that those with problems were committed - I would visit and try to make connections - but I was told I only saw a small part of the problem. Sometime I tend to think the experts are only seeing a small part of the problem as well. I am not sure we have made that much progress with out science or religious enlightenment in our modern era with those with mental issues. The Traveler
    2 points
  13. I vote for one of the three marked below:
    2 points
  14. When I was young I would judge people that inflicted self harm or commited suicide. I was pretty ignorant. Being older and knowing people that suffer with depression and other mental illnesses, I could never judge again. Having overwhelming feelings of sadness and worthlessness is absolutely terrible and I feel for those that experience these. For many there is no simple solution. This isn't a case of a broken bone you can set in a cast and be healed in a few weeks. These are struggles that go on for years and can incapacitate people to the point they won't get out of bed or do anything productive. They don't believe doing anything will be of any value. They don't feel the joys of life and want the pain to go away, but don't know how to make it go away. They need our love far more than they need us debating whether it is a sin or not. It is our place to love them, not judge them.
    2 points
  15. That's for ex-members. Implies some of us aren't (for Christ). Personally, I don't like the idea of the Lord's name in a URL or site name - seems like it would cause too-casual use of his name. But that's me. I like MormonHub too, but I'm very glad that the owners decided to follow the prophet's counsel to not refer to the Church or its members as "Mormon": I always think of "MormonHub" as a central / gathering place for members of the Church, thus replacing "Mormon" with "Latter-day Saint" is the closest way to adhere to the guidelines: Latter-daySaint(s)Hub. Even if it's not so obvious to people who are not members, (a) it's still unique to us (as far as I know), (b) it shows that we follow the counsel of the prophet, and (c) it helps make "Latter-day Saint" more common, thus increasing the chance others will use it. This seems like a more-than-worthwhile effort.
    2 points
  16. As a former Single Stake rep, I have met a lot of faithful single women. The demographic reality is that if they do not marry outside the church, they will not marry. Not marrying in this life has serious consequences. In my area, ministering sistering is, if not dead, certainly on life support. Being old childless and single is bleak. I often ponder what to do about the older single women. The over 40s and the older 50s. Many of them are have low incomes and no cars. No car in my area often means inactive as the bus system here is expensive and inconvenient. Some denominations, but not ours, have a bus. In general, if a member marries out, they become less active but the alternative is stark.
    2 points
  17. I will again state that their are grace-filled interfaith marriages. However, my right vs. wrong understanding of scripture--particularly for the never-married, and most particularly to young people--is that this is neither a matter of honesty nor of romantic love, but rather one of obedience. God, through the Apostle Paul, said NO to unequal yoking. King Solomon tells us the meaning of life is to love God and obey His commandments. So, my best love and my best honesty is to avoid interfaith dating and seek out a marriage union with one of my own faith. My wife was Presbyterian, but when she married an AoG preacher she knew she would be joining an AoG church and that we would raise our children in the same. Fortunately Korean Presbyterians are more AoG in their outlook than they American Presbyterian, so it was an easy transition for her.
    2 points
  18. It must stink. However, that doesn't change my knowledge that Joseph Smith is a Prophet called by Heavenly Father to kick things off.
    2 points
  19. Has anyone mention Hosea? I'll see myself out.
    2 points
  20. “God’s word doesn’t change, but our ability to understand it does.” ”Line upon line. Precept upon precept.” “....If you believe not these words, believe in Christ...” 2 Nephi 33:10 From the time I first heard of the Church until I became a member was 36 years. I am thankful that Saints I came into contact with had the wisdom to understand that I was operating with incomplete information and helped me become the best Christian I could be with the information I had. That this man is going as far as he can is to be commended. That he is trying to create peace between us and those who are often hostile towards our faith is to be applauded.
    2 points
  21. I'm not sure I can answer your question on sincerity. I can offer some sincere advice if you're willing to accept it. This is given with the belief that you want a confirmation. I felt the same as you do when I was an investigator. I would read the Book of Mormon and any other material I could find and pray for confirmation. Somewhere along the way, I heard a talk developing a testimony. It spoke of having the desire for your beliefs to be true and then acting upon that desire. It spoke of living your life as though your testimony were strong and following the Prophets. When you act in faith, you gain confirmation. I really enjoyed this message: My experience was a gradual increase of light. After living in faith for a short period, I looked and realized I had a testimony. Even though I still wasn't "ready" to be baptized, once I had that understanding the confirmations came fast, furious, and very obviously. I'm not sure this helps you at all, but I hope it is encouraging. Here are a few talks on the subject: https://www.lds.org/youth/article/gaining-and-keeping-a-testimony?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2006/10/the-power-of-a-personal-testimony?lang=eng
    2 points
  22. I, for one, would not have been okay with it. They paid a heavy price for their sincere repentance, and God judged them (apparently quite positively), which I happily accept. But men guilty of murder have no business sitting in a position of judgment.
    1 point
  23. 1 point
  24. Traveler

    The Sacrament

    The sacrament must be taken by covenant and sealed by the power of the Holy Ghost to renew covenants and remit sins. To partake is not enough. I believe this is why many of the general authorities have recommended greater sacred attention during this ordinance. The Traveler
    1 point
  25. Hey, you're not arguing with me here. I go to CAF and read their forums where they're discussing the issue among themselves - if you want to find people who are disagreeing with what you're telling me, they have 'em in droves over there...
    1 point
  26. I have a facebook arguing buddy, who married a lady who now says she's a man named George. I just plain out asked my buddy to help me with pronouns. He thanked me, and said "George uses male pronouns". I have yet to actually meet either of them face to face, I'm still not sure what I'd do. The second great commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself. I don't know crap about this person, what they're like, their beliefs and loves and fears. The only thing I know is that folks going through gender transitions tend to have lots and lots of problems, up to and including suicide rates off the charts. I don't think I'd go in trying to be insulting, openly refusing to call George 'him' and making a big deal about it. I'd probably just plain admit that I still feel totally awkward and don't know what to do. Then I'd tell a funny story about my facebook buddy from our youth that this person would probably find funny. All that said, encouraging people to have problems that simply aren't there for most people, sort of makes me a tad disrespectful. I dunno. You figure it out and come tell us!
    1 point
  27. I like it! KolobHub KolobCentral Hieing to Kolob (or Hying to Kolob, if you must)
    1 point
  28. @zil Blunt doesn’t bother me 😀. I’d rather have someone be blunt than beat around the bush of vagueness. Can you tell me anything about he author? @Jane_Doe Thanks!
    1 point
  29. Chilean

    Marrying a Non Member

    When I was single, after my divorce, I went to the singles ward (I was about 26 I think)... and I hated it, because they (the brothers) had that checklist. I thought, and still think, is a very immature way to judging people you don't know and don't know anything about. Plus, what? you just returned from your mission and think you know everything about real life? I think the most judgmental people at church are the brothers in the YSA with their stupid checklists. And that is why there are so many single sisters, because the brothers marry the 18 yrs old coming out of YW, dreaming of a return missionary prince and a temple marriage.
    1 point
  30. There are times and places that the Baptists and Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints get along very well. I did a lot of work for DuPont at their now closed facility on land that is now the DuPont forest in NC - very beautiful place (one of my favorite in the world). At the time the plant manager was Baptist and at my first blush there was prejudice (on both sides). The area was hard hit economically and the local bishop worked with the Baptists to help many desperate families. During this same time I was key in automating the facility and the plant director and I became very close. So close that when DuPont decided to sell the facility the plant manager put together an employee buyout and I was listed as one of the critical board members to validate the buyout. BTW the US trade commission nixed the buyout because it would have been a monopoly which is sort-of true but a flawed excuse. The sale was okay-ed to a Germany company that took the technology to Germany and closed the plant a week after the buy; some 300 well paid employees lost their lively hood causing more economic problems in the area. Bill Clinton was president - I do not know how much he was involved but it was a trade and business blunder; 100% government mistake that did not help anyone doing business in the US and I suspect that someone in the Clinton administration profited that should not have. Back to the Baptist and Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints get along - there were many friends and joint activities - it is the best I have seen in corporation between rival religions. I was aware of some switching of "sides" (both ways) but It was about equal and very few. I cannot speak for those that became Baptists but for the Baptist that become members - they were fantastic family solid members. I would welcome any such to our fold. The Traveler
    1 point
  31. Lost Boy

    Self-harm and Suicide

    I have been overweight for most of my adult life. I wondered if it was a symptom of depression or some other mental illness. For me I think I am addicted to carbs. I ended up going on a low carb diet. I ate a ton of veggies and some meat. I stayed away from sugar, bread, potatoes, rice, etc. And when I did that, my desire to eat plummeted. I stopped snacking. The only time I got hungry was meal time and I would eat my food and was done. This was a big turning point in my life. I dropped a lot of weight and sticking mostly to a low carb diet, I have managed to keep it off. And I have gone back to eating more carbs from now and then, but I find myself wanting to eat more and more. No reason to need to eat, but an incredible to eat. So, can being overweight be a symptom of a mental health issue? probably. But I think it really has way more to do with what we eat than anything else. Changing to a diet comprised mostly of healthy veggies some fruit and some meat has been life changing.
    1 point
  32. 1 point
  33. That is pretty much the counsel we give in the Church. We naturally continue to reach out to those who have not followed it in the hope that they find the better way once they come to themselves (referencing the prodigal son). And some certainly do! I think the notion of marrying someone you plan to or think you can change is also foolhardy and adds additional problems... even if it isn't over religion! Related to that, I believe we typically marry to our own level of development, which can be quite revealing if we are humble enough to recognize it for what it is when so-called "differences" become evident.
    1 point
  34. @zil @Blackmarch @Grunt Thanks for your combined advice on knowing genuine sincerity and intent l. If I may sum what you have collectively said so I can make sure I’m understanding correctly. It sounds as if the general consensus is to act as if it where true (prayer, church attendance, listen to sermons, read). That is, the view is persueing confirmation in the BoM and prayer is not always enough. Sounds like I’m on the right track then. It’s encoraging, first of all, to know that some of you have had similar experiences and have felt the same way as me. That this is a process without time expectation is also encouraging. I have been praying and will continue, and I have been attending my local christian church so I’ll continue with this as well as finishing the Book of Mormon. Im also going to start reading a book I found in a used book store called, “The miracle of forgiveness,” by Kimball. Maybe I can capture a vision of the LDS worldview this way. If I have questions about what I read should I ask here or in the theology forum? Tele
    1 point
  35. Actually in our faith, the more educated are more active and observant based on PEW research
    1 point
  36. Grunt

    What name would you choose?

    Sigh. I like Mormon Hub.
    1 point
  37. lostinwater

    Marrying a Non Member

    Totally respect that!
    1 point
  38. I wore something like this to church 2 sundays ago:
    1 point
  39. Sunday21

    The Doctor Is In

    Ahhhhh!!!!!!! Tricked again! I will not close my eyes to sleep for a fortnight!
    1 point
  40. That’s one thing about Gulliver’s Travels that I’m not sure I like. Swift isn’t wrong, but I feel like he over emphasizes man’s fallen nature—to the point where, if I remember correctly (it’s been years since I’ve read it), Gulliver forsakes all human interaction at the end, even with his own wife and family. At least More here is willing to acknowledge that we have something other than just a fallen nature. We are dual beings—fallen human and spiritually divine. Though perhaps More is over emphasizing our better nature—again that idealism. There is slavery in Utopia. It’s not explicitly stated (there is not a lot of description regarding the slaves), but I wonder if it’s inferable that they are not allowed to procreate. Perhaps this is the Utopian form of eugenics. It appears that they largely do not even try to reform them. Any Utopian found to be doing something “unnatural” would be punished with slavery either temporarily or permanently depending on the offence. It seems the attitude is almost “once a criminal, always a criminal.” Even a small human foible could potentially be punished. Definitely one of the reasons I wouldn’t want to live there. From the book: “Everyone has his eye on you, so you’re practically forced to get on with your job, and make some proper use of your spare time.” Very Orwellian.
    1 point
  41. I'm hoping the winning entry is from this list. (But not ManChunk or whatever that was supposed to be.) Really liking LatterDayCentral, or LatterDayDiscussions.
    1 point
  42. classylady

    Apostle’s wives

    As an apostle, President Howard W. Hunter, remarried in 1990 about 7 years after his first wife had died. He married a divorced woman, Inis Egan. Inis had been divorced since 1966 and had three children from her previous relationship. From what President Hunter wrote in his journal, they were very happy together.
    1 point
  43. “We don’t share the gospel or go on a mission so we can go to the Celestial Kingdom. We share the Gospel so others can to the Celestial Kingdom and have the privilege of spending eternity with our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Ben Arkle.
    1 point
  44. Vort

    Apostle’s wives

    I understand your concern, and I don't blame you. But keep in mind that relationships between human beings are not like ownership of used cars or old houses. An individual human being is infinitely precious, worth much more than this planet we live on. We must never allow ourselves to gauge other people like we might examine a horse or an automobile or a piece of property we were thinking about acquiring. That said, you're a fool if you go into a relationship with your eyes shut. In this case, that's your brother's call, not yours. Worrying (privately) about him is fine, but your duty is to support and love him. To answer your question, I know that in the early history of the Church, during the polygamy days, the brethren did sometimes marry women whose husbands had left them or who had left their husbands. I don't think that really has anything to do with your brother's situation, though. If people can overcome their painful and often damaging experiences in life, they can achieve true greatness. This applies as much to your brother's fiancée as it does to him, or to you, or me, or anyone else.
    1 point
  45. I like the suggestion for Latter-day Saint Hub. It's an equivalent to the phrasing "mormonhub". I cast all 3.5k of my votes for it.
    1 point
  46. by their fruits shall ye know them. i don't think the question is whether or not that one is sincere... but possibly more of one of how sincere? how bad do you want to have that knowledge and if you did what would you do with it? that it has stuck with you all this time shows that you have more sincerity than a bunch of people i could name.
    1 point
  47. pam

    What name would you choose?

    https://www.ldschurchnews.com/members/2018-09-04/a-sneak-peek-at-the-home-centered-church-curriculum-for-2019-47893 Anticipating an announcement at General Conference
    1 point
  48. zil

    What name would you choose?

    Latter-day Yammering Church Chat Gathering the Saints
    1 point
  49. God is the biggest defender of Agency... God is the biggest Law Giver and the whole plan he has is built around testing our obedience... The two are not incompatible but we need to be careful not to advance one at the expense of the other.
    1 point
  50. On the article itself - The problem you would run into as a Historian is that Plato and Aristotle are not being used to try to establish actual historical events. They are seen as philosophers rather than a recorded history. As such you can utilize devices in the writing to find historical relevance, but it does not normally establish historical events. When people talk about the bible as a Historical they are normally trying to establish certain things as absolute truths in history. Rather than seeing the Bible in a similar manner as to what they see as Plato's Republic (and thus ONLY a philosophical item that reflects historical attitudes and sentiment) they see it more like a history book or historical record. It is a cultural reference that can establish what the culture may have been like, but normally is not used as one to establish historical events on it's own. The Bible on the otherhand is used in many instances by Christians as trying to be the sole item to establish historical fact, sometimes against or contrary to various other items that say such facts are impossible to have occurred. A more relevant comparison would be the records of the Norse Mythology (their religion) is taken FAR less reliably as a historical record than the Bible, and they typically date from a far sooner period in many instances. If one is going to compare documents authenticity from a scholarly secular historical point of view, it probably is best to compare like to like documents rather than apples and oranges. I should note, that historians DO use the Bible as a historical document in some cases, but not as much as some Christians would want them to. In addition, some of the more incredible items (read miracles and supernatural items) are normally taken as literally as they would any other mythological text from a civilization. This is NOT to say that historians may believe otherwise in regards to FAITH, but there are some standards that are there in order to set what can or cannot be acceptable in regards to historical events as a secular scholarship would demand.
    1 point