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I would contend that "or" is incorrect. It is always "and" (except in very, very, very rare cases). In point of fact I'd flip it: To make His current will known, God appoints certain trustworthy emissaries and He can speak to us directly.

The endowment ceremony is, at best, ambiguous on the point. Within the ceremony, Adam and Eve are portrayed as both distinct individuals alone on the earth, as well as a collective being assaulted by the teachings of men. Beyond that, there's a very plausible argument to be made that Moses himself didn't consider Adam to be a single individual, as the word Adam translates to the collective mankind. That there existed a man and a woman that had reached a phase of cognitive function that God was ready to assign them the task of first prophets/teachers/whatever is completely believable. That there existed a man and a woman that are genetic ancestors to every human being is less likely, but not completely out of the question (Heck, most human beings are genetic ancestors of Genghis Khan). That there existed a man and a woman that are genetic ancestors to every human being and had reached the phase of cognitive function that God was ready to assign them the task of first prophet/teacher/whatever strains credibility (at least for me). And that both of those conditions are met only 6,000 - 7,000 years ago strikes me as, well, NUH-UHHHHH. (I will concede that "fictional" characters is an overstatement, but will also note that that particular descriptor originated from Rob. I'm perfectly content to write that off as one of his strawmen)

I think the saddest stories I hear from LDS is when they start talking Adam and Eve as allegorical fictional characters. What a travesty!

A Pentecostal favorite is Joel 2:28-29: And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out my spirit upon on flesh; and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days I will pour out my spirit. Peter, in his great Acts 2 sermon, counters the accusation that the apostles and believers are drunk, by declaring, "THIS is THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel." Of course, we experience the gift of prophecy different, but the idea that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including prophesy, would cease--especially that such would happen as a result of the completion of scripture canon, is largely based on conjecture, in my always humble opinion.

It’s funny how often I see this scripture (John 5:39) quoted within the Church as if it were a straightforward injunction that we should search the scriptures; when Jesus’ statement—taken in context—is positively dripping with sarcasm. As for the OP: one reason is something others have hinted at it, but to put it another way: the extant written corpus of scripture is not enough to devine the will of God for our particular situations. Never was, never will be. The Torah wasn’t enough for Isaiah, the Old Testament wasn’t enough for Mark, Mark wasn’t enough for Luke, and Peter’s epistles weren’t enough for John. Even if we could somehow develop a canon with unquestionably timeless value, an army of scripture-lawyers would inevitably pervert it to their own ends until we had a litany of competing schools of interpretation— which is, in fact, what happened to Christianity. To make His current will known, God can either speak to us directly; or He can appoint certain trustworthy emissaries. In the event—He does both, and each lines of communication serves as a check against potentially spurious revelations coming through the other line.

1/8/19 - My wife and I feel asleep in separate bedrooms so it was just me sleeping in our master bedroom. I woke up around 3:40am. I was alone in the room except that when I woke up I immediately sensed an evil spirit. It was a negative feeling, and it was as if I could feel its presence in the air. The air all around me felt disturbed with a buzzing, not an audible buzzing but more of a 6th-sense, spiritual buzzing. I kept my eyes closed out of fear of seeing something I didn’t want to see. I had one of these encounters before and what I saw the first time was pretty freaky. This time I was laying down with my left arm behind my head and my body slightly positioned on its left side where I was mostly laying on my back but slightly on my side as well facing towards the edge of the bed. With my eyes still closed, a few seconds later I noticed I couldn’t move. The spirit was somehow holding me in that position. I wasn’t in any pain, but I did feel bound by some force. I was still too unnerved to open my eyes because I felt this presence strongest right in front of me at the edge of the bed between the bed and the closet. I laid there immobile for maybe a minute, and I thought I could wait this out, but then the idea came to me to try and grab whatever was in front of me with my left hand that was behind my head. I attempted to do so but as much as I tried moving my arm the more I realized how much I was being held motionless by this presence. Even trying to lift my head slightly to remove my arm from behind me was impossible. I exerted every effort I had several times but found it to be futile. I then thought I had had enough at that point and was going to cast this evil presence out in the name of Jesus Christ and by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood. I tried to speak, but I could barely utter anything. I was only able to utter fragmented words that probably wouldn’t have been intelligible to anyone listening. I then tried a second time but not with much more success. Finally the third time I was able to somewhat break free from this grasp over me. I managed to sit up in bed, raised my right hand to the square, and spoke, “In the name of Jesus Christ and by the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood, I command all evil spirits to depart and I place you under lock and key until after the Millennial Reign." As soon as I finished saying this a third time in a clear manner, I felt the presence completely leave, and I regained full control of my faculties. Worried other evil presences might be in other parts of the house, I went to check on our 2-year old daughter, and then went to check on my wife. Our daughter was fine, and when I checked on my wife I actually nudged her awake to make sure she was okay. She was unintentionally startled more than I intended (she was having a bad dream), but when she came to she said she was fine after regaining some of her senses. I went back to bed wondering what would have invited such a spirit. I rededicated myself to God a week ago to live more closely to Him, so I was thinking maybe that was it. If anything this experience brings me closer to God as the very real spiritual battle between good and evil was unfolded so clearly before me (I was going to say before my eyes, but I had them shut the entire time lol). All these events I described were so real I'm convinced it's not just a case a sleep paralysis unrelated to anything spiritual. I'm sure a lot of people would dismiss this encounter as nothing more than an event of sleep paralysis as explained by the medical community, but not me. It was much more real for me. I felt a palpable, negative force all around me. From the many other similar encounters I have read this morning, it seems Satan and his followers are still busy as they ever have been. I believe these other encounters I'm reading when they attribute this negative presence to something more than just hallucinating upon waking up.

There is sleep paralysis and then there is something different that gets mistaken for it. I think that many times there are Evil Spirits that attack us and what was described in the Original Post is an apt description of it. These often are categorized as sleep paralysis when in reality, they are attacks upon us. One event (of several) that to me convinced me that these are Evil Spirits and NOT just some medical idea comes from a story I will relate below. I do not want to go into too much detail, but will cover it briefly. There was a young man that I knew that kept on getting attacked in the manner described above. He asked for me and another to give him a priesthood blessing to ward off these things. I did so. The attacks stopped and thus far, as far as I know, he has not been attacked again. So I think that it is absolutely dealing with a darker side but something that can be kept away by the Power and Authority of the Lord through the Priesthood.

Major Howard Eagan is one of my ancestors. He married a Cherokee woman. I guess I'm as much Cherokee as she is.

I've had my own skepticism when I've read other people's accounts similar to mine. There's a need to be cautious with what to believe. It's hard to understand what it's like without experiencing it yourself. It's good to know there are others out there like yourself who have also experienced encounters with both bad and good spirits. It really helps you comprehend even if just at a glimpse the kind of peril someone like Joseph Smith experienced while first attempting to pray in the Sacred Grove.

I suffer from sleep paralysis. In fact, a couple of weeks ago I had the worst bout of it I've ever had. In all the times I have experienced it, I have never felt a presence in the room, although I have visually imagined them from time to time and believed they were there (usually a shadowy human figure) until I was able to snap out of the paralysis. I have never kept my eyes closed, except when physically unable to open them. When experiencing sleep paralysis, I feel like everything is moving in slow motion, especially me. Anyway, sleep paralysis sucks, but I'm not sure how I would classify your experience. That said, have you ever experienced sleep paralysis before? Could it possibly be sleep paralysis + something else combined? In my personal situation, I don't think Satan will send an evil spirit to directly attack me in a way that I would easily recognize it as an evil spirit anyway. Why? Because the idea that God may not exist has always been the only thing I could imagine as a rational alternative to the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel. If Satan were to attack me directly in such a way that I could see and/or recognize him or one of the evil spirits who follow him, then it would have a net positive effect on my testimony and would reinforce the reality of the existence of God and the Devil. That said, Lucifer was 'dumb' enough to get himself kicked out of heaven, so who knows?

I have, and it's no fun. It's like something tickles that primal, lizard brain that tells you there's danger even though the scope's clear on all of your other senses. You can't put your finger on it, but you know something's not right and the fight or flight reflex starts to boot up.

I have felt this before, but I find if I am not afraid and immediately act that the spirit is driven out and a sense of peace fills the void. Stand up to these thugs and don't fear them. Fear is their only power and when we act with confidence they are driven away. Men and women of God will always be supported by the Spirit of God when we need it.

I have been reflecting on the shorter day, the changes which have been brought into effect and how to make the most of the lessons that I teach. I hope that the structure inspires families to study together and makes it easier for this to happen. I heard good reports of SS being more interactive as people had prepared; I hope that people keep the momentum and energy going for as long as possible. More people lingered to chat after SS - We had a baptism and a few more than usual stayed as we were finished by "normal" time. We had fewer testimonies borne, people will have to figure out they need to be more concise. People were turned away so we didn't run over. Not sure if this will be a positive or negative...depends on who is more determined to speak. I am struggling with only 20 mins to teach. Especially as I have a class of children who do not get the gospel at home - part member families, the only active one at home and one that comes with grandparents every other week. These children are amazing and I don't want to let them down...so will need some prayerful thought so I can receive promptings to guide them in the best way. I miss singing time as now have to stay in the classroom with the other teacher as we have split junior/senior - loved being in with singing time. Also fear I will be struggling with having an extra hour to do the stuff I usually do i.e. prep next weeks lesson, personal study and family history. So hoping people will want to linger for a few weeks still. So overall very positive and trying to frame my worries in a more positive manner. Would love to hear other peoples thoughts on the changes

1. I don’t think it’s quite *that* ambiguous. At some point, Adam and Eve’s posterity start being directly referenced. And “we are as Adam” is logically/semantically distinct from “Adam is as us”. And at any rate, as we’ve just been reminded—the temple liturgy is not fixed in stone. It can be, and repeatedly been, changed if/when the Church leadership disapproves of the theology that the liturgy is being used to justify. 2. Given the state of OT scholarship, I’m a little surprised you consider Moses to be a literal figure—let alone that you appeal to his authority for the proposition that Adam was an ahistorical figure. But suffice it to say that the Bible—both Old and New Testaments—and maybe even the Book of Mormon as well—often gets cute with wordplay by assigning characters names whose meanings fit the theme of the story being told. That doesn’t mean that any particular Biblical luminary just plain didn’t exist. 3. Agreed. 4. The gods at Wikipedia say that the “most common recent ancestor” (*NOT* “mitochondrial Eve”) of all modern humanity may have lived as recently as 300 BCE. So, moving in into point 5, 4000 BCE-ish seems like plenty of time. Even from a purely evolutionist point of view, a question we still have to wrestle with is: at what point did humanity become “human enough” for God to reveal Himself to mankind and for the Plan of Salvation (including visions, covenants, and the promise of deification and eternal families to come into play? The quibbles I have there, are: a) even the most die-hard allegorist day some point have to concede that not *all* of the OT is purely allegorical/fictional; and b) it’s not just the ancient documents we’re trying to understand—Joseph Smith and Joseph F. Smith were both crystal clear that they saw the literal Adam. If Joseph Smith falsely claimed to have seen *one* being who didn’t really exist, who *else* did he claim to have seen that, as a matter of truth, didn’t really exist? Moroni? John the Baptist? Jesus? God?

My suppositions are similar to yours in that I believe that Matthew was helping to transition the Jewish disciples from the old to the new law, the old ways to the new ways, which I believe included elevating women to their rightful place alongside men. Luke didn't need to include the women in the genealogy because he was writing to a Gentile audience, and besides, his account of the Saviors birth was written from two women's perspective. As for descending below, I agree with you, though I would put it another way:. What each of the four women have in common is "illegitimacy" under Jewish law. Thamar and Bathsheba conceived their children out of wedlock and through adultery. As a non-Jew, Ruth conceived illegitimately outside the Israelite race. And Mary conceived while espoused to another man. At least 3 of these offenses, including Mary, were worthy of stoning under old Jewish law. And, while I don't believe that the women were included in Joseph's genealogy as a way of sanctioning or encouraging illegitimate births, I believe it suggest that since Christ was able to gain perfection in spite of impurity in his blood lines, our impure bloodlines, and even our impure blood, will not prevent us from achieving perfection through Christ-. So, let us -Come Follow Him? Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Where Justice, Love, and Mercy Meet - Holland April 2015 In our increasingly secular society, it is as uncommon as it is unfashionable to speak of Adam and Eve or the Garden of Eden or of a “fortunate fall” into mortality. Nevertheless, the simple truth is that we cannot fully comprehend the Atonement and Resurrection of Christ and we will not adequately appreciate the unique purpose of His birth or His death--in other words, there is no way to truly celebrate Christmas or Easter--without understanding that there was an actual Adam and Eve who fell from an actual Eden, with all the consequences that fall carried with it. I do not know the details of what happened on this planet before that, but I do know these two were created under the divine hand of God, that for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family, and that through a sequence of choices they transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death.

It’s unfortunate that I can’t cite directly to sacred things in order to make textualist/pedantic counter-arguments. So, suffice it to say (in my most erudite, hifalutin’ tone of voice): NUH-UHHHHHH!!!! I think Joseph Smith’s revelations make clear that there was a historical Adam and Eve around 6-7000 years ago who were cognitively/spiritually distinct from any precursor life forms and who may properly be regarded as the grand patriarch and matriarch of humanity—or in other words, whose can be found in the ancestry of every human now living. That parts of the temple ceremony may be allegorical—and even just plain don’t work, if we take it as a historical recitation of interactions between the mortal Adam and certain other historical figures—I don’t dispute; but to say that the temple ceremony portrays Adam and Eve as fictional characters strikes me as a massive overstatement.

I’m curious as to whether your insight elected any reaction? I had a moment yesterday when a totally new paradigm for approaching the parable of the rich young ruler hit me right out of the blue—but when I tried to share it in class, everyone looked at me like I was nuts. (Which I sort of am. But, still . . . ) Also, to the OP: in Matt 7:15-20 Jesus warns of false prophets and gives us a key to detecting them. Now, why would He have us take the trouble to evaluate a would-be prophet’s “fruits”, if He could have simply said “There will be many professed prophets; reject all of them immediately regardless of any pretended fruits, for after Me there are no such?” Jesus’ counsel here implies that there will be both false prophets and true ones; and that we are expected to be able to tell the difference.

You mean like the temple ceremony does?

This is absolutely not obsolete; it is just as pertinent now as it ever was. Perhaps if we flip the two phrases a more appropriate interpretation will become clear: "after all we can do, it is by grace that we are saved" As should be more apparent, this passage indicates that even after all we can do it is still by grace that we are saved. Now let us put this understanding back into the full context of the verse from which it comes: So why do we labor so diligently to persuade our children and our brethren to believe in Christ? Because at the end of the day, after everything we can do, it is still by the grace of God that we are saved. In context, this passage is actually indicative that Nephi was far ahead of his time in the sense that he saw beyond the law of Moses and looked forward to Christ.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/book-of-remembrance?lang=eng I would rather have the Book of Remembrance then the record from the lost tribes... Maybe Nelson has a copy

You guys ever consider that maybe it was just for the sake of clarity - as in "this guy named John, son of this wife; not that guy name John, son of that other wife"?

Not outdated, but often misunderstood. Read this: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng "The prophet Nephi made an important contribution to our understanding of God’s grace when he declared, “We labor diligently … to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”31 However, I wonder if sometimes we misinterpret the phrase “after all we can do.” We must understand that “after” does not equal “because.” We are not saved “because” of all that we can do. Have any of us done all that we can do? Does God wait until we’ve expended every effort before He will intervene in our lives with His saving grace? Many people feel discouraged because they constantly fall short. They know firsthand that “the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.”32 They raise their voices with Nephi in proclaiming, “My soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.”33 I am certain Nephi knew that the Savior’s grace allows and enables us to overcome sin.34 This is why Nephi labored so diligently to persuade his children and brethren “to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God.”35 After all, that is what we can do! And that is our task in mortality!"

If President Nelson is allowing that Mary was a surrogate (contrary to the use of the word “conceive” in Matthew and Luke), and that Jesus’ Parents (or Their gametes) were of of a mortal phase for His conception, how could he consider Jesus “an immortal being not subject to death”? I’m thinking that the keys of resurrection that were given to Jesus are different than His personal power over death; that His sinlessness after the age of accountability and divine protection gave Him personal power over death (including His choice of when, where and how to die), and that the keys for universal resurrection were obtained from the Father after He fulfilled His mortal mission (John 20:17; D&C 93;13). I think the title "Only Begotten" is an example of "speaking of things to come as though they had already come" (Mosiah 16:6).

Some of the stories I've gathered, have nothing to do with waking up. Some folks tell of going into a room or a house or somewhere, and they and others who are with them all feel the same sort of negative force/presence. Like the opposite of something more of us recognize, which is feeling the spirit in a group (at the temple, during a particularly moving fireside, etc). I've felt the spirit with others. I've never had the opposite/negative experience. But people keep showing up with stories.

It is unnerving to realize you're temporarily paralyzed, but what has me convinced my experience was something more than that was before I realized I was paralyzed I immediately sensed a negative presence upon waking up. So I couldn't have been stimulated to imagine a negative presence from being in a state of paralysis since I didn't realize I was paralyzed until after.

In the last year or two, I've had half a dozen instances of waking up from a dream darn near paralyzed by terror. But I could tell it was just a plain old emotional state - nothing external to me and my own brain juices. You are describing something different. I've heard so many stories similar to yours, from folks like you (mostly reasonable, no shortage of brain power, able to tell the difference between emotion and reason), that obviously there is something going on. What that something is, I do not know. But the numerous accounts are undismissable.

But maybe it only matters if multiple wives happened to have sons with the same name. As long as each son had a unique name, who the mother was wouldn't matter (so to speak). Though I suppose if who the mother was never, ever mattered - as in, they never kept the genealogy of women (but then how did they know Elisabeth was a daughter of Aaron, and how did they know the mothers of the sons in this genealogy?), then yes, these are weird exceptions - perhaps due to their unique places in history.

Ok. Day one was a success. Ate responsibly, worked out, finished the day 500 calories under my plan. Today is day two. Here is where I've been failing since Thanksgiving to get back on track. "I did fine yesterday, that means I've earned [whatever I notice is going into my mouth at the time]". That's a lie spawned by the pit of hell, which leads to the next lie "Well, I blew it today, might as well go all out." So, had my breakfast apple. Have my emergency chicken here at work with me if I weaken. Chili for lunch, BAPOC, maybe a walk around the building. Then going home prepared for home. Birthday cake is gone, but someone opened up another one of those big tins of three kinds of popcorn. And those cookies are sitting there, because apparently I'm the only one that likes them. Honestly, treating the whole thing like I'm in recovery from a dangerous addiction seems to be my best way of getting into the proper habits. Day two.

Oh, the horror of trying to understand ancient documents in the context of which they were written!

No one else commented on it afterward and the teacher essentially acknowledged the response as valid and moved on because she wasn't expecting that type of a statement in relation to that passage. It wasn't awkward like the occasional 'weird' comment; one could see the wheels churning in at least the teachers mind.

It felt odd but good. I'm the SS president and I was doing my quarterly teacher training last Sunday. It felt really weird to dismiss the class and go home, almost like I was skipping the last part of church lol. But it was a positive change for me. We were able to get my 10 month old to her nap earlier, and used the extra time to have a really spirtual lesson with my wife and myself. Mrs. Midwest is in the Primary Presidency and said it was more difficult. While less time made it easier to deal with the kids, it was more difficult to teach the lessons. However, it's something she thinks they will get used to in time. Overall, I really enjoyed it and while I enjoyed the 3 hour block as well, this change was a real blessing for us.

It is going to take adjusting to, that's for sure. I've frequently found that when SS or RS is a "miss" for me, the other is frequently a "hit", so I still have a good experience in church somewhere. It'll take some getting used to with the shorter schedule. It'll be good, but take getting used to.

I really enjoyed it. I team taught youth sunday school and had a great conversation with the kids. My oldest had her first day in primary as a big girl sunbeam and it was short enough she was happy about it - we were really concerned because going to nursery is a highlight of her week and she longs for it all sacrament meeting. But when it was all said and done, she was excited to see me come to get her, but also happy with what they did. The brevity of course was no doubt helpful because she confided in my wife that they made her sit in a chair and she couldn't run around the room with the kids and play the piano. We think too much sitting time would have turned her off and really made her miss nursery. She has a late birthday so she has only been three for a couple months and our nursery leaders did nothing to prepare the little ones to transition to primary. Fortunately, day one was an overall success.

The facial hair is sure to help as well.

I’ll wrote it up in the thread @zil linked. It’s kind of a convoluted thought process.

@anatess2 girl, you need to eat (I understand while sick, eating takes a back seat). When you are healthy again, you have got to give your body food on a regular basis. Food is fuel--you are basically running your car on a nearly empty tank. By not eating regularly, you are sabotaging your health--even if you eat healthy, going without food for such long periods deteriorates your health.

Our Sunday School teacher used this verse yesterday; I commented that this verse actually meant that the scriptures were insufficient, hinting that revelation was needed in addition to the scriptures and that this is clear from Christ's use of the word 'think'.

Work on only one of them. Choose which one you can commit to and go for it 100%. If you do the others that's great, but we want laser like focus on achieving one before building others on top. It sounds like starting with book-ending your meal times will be a great starting point. If you have succeeded at that for 90%+ of the time for the next two weeks then we'll build on it. It sounds slow and it is a little out of the gate, but when you really start to master some small things one at a time the cumulative effect becomes powerful. You can certainly negotiate fruits for veggies in place of chips. It was just one of many places to start so that you have a choice and I am not dictating - it's amazing how much having a say in things helps buy in.

I find the whole genealogy thing interesting. I agree the name dropping legitimizes his royal line. But as we all know, his real patriarchal line is very short & way more impressive —> God. I'm not even sure if Mary's genealogy is legitimate. Most assume that Jesus is the zygote from the union of an immortal sperm with a mortal egg. I think that the donor of the egg that produced Jesus is from Heavenly Mother. And that Mary is a surrogate mother - Alma 7:10

I do not think so since Moroni taught the same thing in Moroni 10:32-33: "...if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ..."

I will be interested to see how you will attempt to square the following excerpt from the prophet Joseph Smith’s May 16, 1841 sermon with your belief that King David can never be forgiven and is a son of perdition... “Even David, must wait for those times of refreshing, before he can come forth and his sins be blotted out; for Peter speaking of him says, “David hath not yet ascended into Heaven, for his sepulchre is with us to this day:” his remains were then in the tomb. Now we read that many bodies of the saints arose, at Christ’s resurrection, probably all the saints, but it seems that David did not. Why? because he had been a murderer. “If the ministers of religion had a proper understanding of the doctrine of eternal judgment, they would not be found attending the man who had forfeited his life to the injured laws of his country by shedding innocent blood; for such characters cannot be forgiven, UNTIL they have paid the last farthing. The prayers of all the ministers in the world could never close the gates of hell against a Murderer.”

Except when they testify of Telestial, Terrestrial, Celestial degrees/kingdoms of glory.

I certainly understand this and I have had similar sorts of musings. But I believe there are some pretty strong common sense differences here. I guess the primary being that the idea that someone expresses an idea that they are called in on "apostasy" for and immediately excommunicated isn't valid. If a bishop mentioned to me that he was concerned with an idea I'd expressed I would immediately recant and remove said message. To get anywhere near excommunication one would have to defiantly hold to the "apostasy". People don't get excommunicated for mistaken ideas, or even for preaching mistaken ideas. They get excommunicated for doing so in defiance of church leaders asking them to stop. Second, I wouldn't have any problem sharing this thinking with any church leader out there. I think at best you'd get a, "Interesting idea." and at worst you'd get a, "That's not what the church teaches." with a "Hmm. Maybe" in the middle, and everyone would move on. Third, the idea here is that I worry someone who might not want to get married might use this type of thinking to justify their own will over the Lord's. This happened one time with Joseph Smith where a sister basically told him "I'm content to be a ministering angel for eternity." Joseph's reply was that she didn't know what she was talking about and he immediately sealed her to...someone (maybe himself??). I'd have to look up the story for the exact details. The real point I'm getting at is that humility and obedience should be our primary concern in all these matters and beyond that we can pretty much leave the eternities to the Lord with full confidence. Mostly, and this is the most important point, this is why I freely admit that I might be, and perhaps even probably am, wrong. However, that doesn't mean that I find the discussion of the ideas problematic, particularly, as I've said to Carb, I'm interested in the reasoning behind conclusions like yours and mine rather than the conclusion itself. Anyhow, thanks for weighing in. At least now I don't look so much like a lone kook on the matter.

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; 2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; 3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. 4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

I dare say there's a pretty big difference here, eh? "I witness that [person] had some pieces of metal with some crazy crap scratched on them." vs. "I witness that an angel of God appeared before me and showed me the metal plates that [person] claimed to have" Not exactly the same sort of testimony.

Cowdery later said: “I beheld with my eyes. And handled with my hands the gold plates from which it was translated. I also beheld the Interpreters.” Oliver Cowdery, the most constant and involved witness to the miraculous translation, always affirmed the divinity of the process. Though later disaffected for a time from the Church, he nevertheless came humbly back. He spoke forthrightly about how he "wrote with my own pen the intire book of Mormon (save a few pages) as it fell from the Lips of the prophet." Oliver would not have humbly returned to the Church at all, especially seeking no station, had there been any kind of fraud! After the appearance to Cowdery and Whitmer, Joseph went searching for Harris, who had gone further into the woods. Harris asked Joseph to pray with him, and at length, they later reported, their desires were fulfilled. Joseph said he saw the same vision as before, and Harris cried out “in an ecstasy of Joy”: “’Tis enough; ’tis enough; mine eyes have beheld.” At the close of the vision he jumped up, shouted “Hosanna,” and blessed God. Harris later signed a statement with Cowdery and Whitmer saying that they had seen an angel and heard a voice commanding that “we should bear record.” Harris Switch out seer Stone for a fake. "Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seerstone Joseph sometimes used in place of the interpreters and substituted it without the Prophet’s knowledge. When the translation resumed, Joseph paused for a long time and then exclaimed, “Martin, what is the matter, all is as dark as Egypt.” Martin then confessed that he wished to “stop the mouths of fools” who told him that the Prophet memorized sentences and merely repeated them."

http://www.ldsliving.com/What-Happened-to-the-3-Witnesses/s/79341 http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Book_of_Mormon_Witnesses https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/evaluating-book-mormon-witnesses

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Witnesses https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/images/gospel-library/manual/32506/32506_000_057_03-witnesses.pdf